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PartridgeCartridge

The Concealed Carry/Self Defense dilemma

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Tim Frazier

I have taken the class, was very impressed by the guy who taught it, a detective for 20 years.  Still I pretty much agree with everything PC wrote, man that feels wierd...

My issue is that people pretty much always take the easy way out and I want my brain to think "options" not "kill", in those precious seconds when the wrong decision will change your life forever.

I don't buy that dead is the worst option every time, but that is just me.  I'm also pretty comfortable with close encounters with untrained idiots handling guns.

I believe the actual value of the law is that a criminal really doesn't know who has a gun and who doesn't, so everyone benifits to some degree.

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PartridgeCartridge
Nothing is ideal, but at the base is the right of every human being to defend their life, the lives of others, and their homes.

I want to agree with that statement but, BUT, there is a legal definition of self defense and the use of lethal force.

And I'm telling you now, you don't understand that very same definition that will be the basis for your prosecution.

Do some simple research and I think you'll find that what you think is the basis for self defense, especially the use of lethal weapons, is not what the law will accept as a reasonable action.

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Greybeard
Nothing is ideal, but at the base is the right of every human being to defend their life, the lives of others, and their homes.

I want to agree with that statement but, BUT, there is a legal definition of self defense and the use of lethal force.

And I'm telling you now, you don't understand that very same definition that will be the basis for your prosecution.

Do some simple research and I think you'll find that what you think is the basis for self defense, especially the use of lethal weapons, is not what the law will accept as a reasonable action.

I agree with you, but I make a conscious decision to carry inspite of the problems and liability.

Very few people know I carry, couple people at work, ex, and current GF, otherwise no one knows....the way I want it to continue!

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PIOBill

These potential problems are the reason the NRA is promoting Castle Doctrin laws to be adopted in so many states.

In Texas if you shoot someone in self defence, you are protected from civil suits. Our carying while traveling law was updated about 4 years ago to allow anyone who is legally aboe to own a firearm to have one conceled in their vehicle under nearly any condition. There were a couple of DA's that didn't like the first virsion so the Legislature cleaned it up so that there was no question as to the intent. If you look at the states that have passed these laws, nearly every one has protections from civil recourse by the person shot or their survivors.

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River19

Several years ago on UJ, and a couple rounds of batting this topic around on UJ have passed since, I wrote my thoughts at length about the responsibility you assume by carrying etc.  Much along the lines of what PC referenced laced with some deep thoughts about being the one to make the decision to end someone’s life.

Many people talk tough from behind the keyboard on many subjects and this one is included; but the reality is that unless we have done it before, we don’t know if we have the decision making ability, skills and sack to actually follow through while processing all the information necessary to ensure you are within the law to do so.  Granted a strong emotional argument can be made for making the ethical, moral and emotional decision to save someone’s life and then let the chips fall as they may, that gets tougher and tougher to process as the resulting BS and bureaucracy mounts on the other side of the incident.

I have a license to carry concealed, but as of yet have not.  I have carried in the woods for other reasons but not while out in “public”.  I have chosen not to carry for many reasons, not the least of which is that I have not prepared myself for all the considerations on PC’s original list of questions/hurdles.  I do take precautions to avoid any circumstances where I could possibly put myself in a situation where I regret that decision.  From a home protection standpoint, I have slightly different feelings, but the same sense of responsibility.

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Bob Frankenfield

PC:

If you're serious I can highly recommend Masaad Ayoob's Lethal Force I.  It's a week-long course on LETHAL defense, the possible aftermaths and how to protect yourself civilly and criminally.

There's shooting everyday BUT it seems the majority of the course is dedicated to; when are you justified in using lethal force, what constitues a lethal threat and what to do after the trigger has been pulled.

You'll get all your questions / concerns answered.

Your thinking will change when you carry.  The uninformed believe packing makes you more aggressive.  I find that when I carry I AVOID situations that might be "dicey".   If I knew it was a bad situation I wouldn't go, armed or not.  You carry for the "surprises".

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SydneyWI

All good points Dave. Consider this, we live in a "free" society and by our constitution have the right to keep and bear arms. The risks that you layed out are real, and actually, I would say needed. We are free to make a choice, those are the risks associated with that choice.

Where I have an issue is in certain states, such as mine, we are by law unable to defend ourselves with a gun legally. That is where the line is for me. While it may be detrimental to me in the long run finacially etc, right now in Wisconsin it is illegal to choose to defend yourself by carrying a concealed weapon.

Having concealed carry denies no one of any right, the law does not require one to carry. The reverse is not true.

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gunsrus
I have had a ccp for 33 years . I applied for it at 27 years of age the day after I was in Boston driving on Mass Ave heading home from a car show with my wife and father in law . The cab in front of me stopped and the man in the back seat got out of the car , opened the cabbie door and pistol whipped the driver , stole his money and turned to my car pointing the gun at my head and yelling ''you didn't see nothin or I'll find you and you're dead''. It happened so fast . Honestly , I don't know if I would have shot the guy , but I was scared . I have had to show my weapon twice since then to avoid being mugged . I do not carry all the time , but when I feel the need , I do . I live in suburbia so the need is not too often . Like Bob says "When carrying , I avoid situations that are dicey'' , I do see your point Dave and hopefully I will never have to make that decision but I will protect my family no matter what the cost .

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Brad Eden
I applied, jumped through the required hoops, and got my CCW permit. The main reason I got it is I was trapping at the time and the commotion of having to have the pistol in view unloaded, and all the other requirements were a PIA. But I rarely if ever carry. Actually I cant remember the last time I did purposely carry concealed. But and a big but is I am glad I legally can if I ever choose to.

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PartridgeCartridge

I applied, jumped through the required hoops, and got my CCW permit. The main reason I got it is I was trapping at the time and the commotion of having to have the pistol in view unloaded, and all the other requirements were a PIA. But I rarely if ever carry. Actually I cant remember the last time I did purposely carry concealed. But and a big but is I am glad I legally can if I ever choose to.

This isn't about carrying.

Its about knowing the law, the liabilities of your actions, and  what happens after you pull the trigger.

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fuess

My family owns a supermarket and deals with a fair amount of cash.  Cash that needs to get deposited in the bank.  My father has been held up 2x in his life, once for 17k in cash.

We looked in to doing this as prevention.....

The risks (outside loosing your life) far outweighed any possible benefit, at least in our opinion.

The "money" question I asked my pop--

COULD YOU REALLY PULL THE TRIGGER??

He just adjusted the things he does and the way he handles the deposits!

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WPG Gizmo

I spent 11 years in the Marines as a Military Policeman on a base that had over 100,000 people.  I worked my way from Pvt up to Platoon Sgt and was in command of one of the 4 MP shifts we had.  In that time I was there I had the chance to work more then a few Rapes, Robbery's and Murders of both military, dependents and civilians.  Had most of these folks been able to defend themselves it is likely that there would have been less for me to investigate.

I have carried for well over 25 years and I am well aware of the issues of Deadly Force and the requirements to use it.  There are 3 requirements to deadly force that had better be present otherwise your in big trouble.

Ability, Opportunity, and Intent. All three factors must be present to justify deadly force.  The person you use Deadly Force against needs to have the Ability (i.e. a weapon of some sort) The Opportunity (i.e. can they utilize this weapon) and the Intent ( i.e. have they in some way shown they intend to use this weapon) 2 out of 3 is not good enough all 3 must be present to use deadly force.

Deadly Force is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm.

The use of deadly force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort, when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed.

Firearms, bladed weapons, explosives, and vehicles are among those weapons the use of which is considered deadly force.

The use of non-weapons in an aggressive manner, such as a baseball bat or tire iron, may also be considered deadly force.

"Use of deadly force" is often granted to police forces when the person or persons in question are believed to be an immediate danger to people around them. For example, an armed man in a shopping mall shooting at random without regard to the safety of the people around him, and refusing or being unwilling to negotiate, would likely warrant usage of deadly force, as a means to prevent further danger to the community. In the United States this is governed by Tennessee v. Garner, which said that "deadly force...may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

In the United States, a civilian may legally use deadly force when it is considered justifiable homicide, that is to say when the civilian feels their own life, or the lives of their family or those around them are in legitimate and imminent danger. However, self-defense resulting in usage of deadly force by a civilian or civilians against an individual or individuals is often subject to examination by a court if it is unclear whether it was necessary at the point of the offense, and whether any further action on the part of the law needs to be taken.

I will continue to carry and if one day it happens that I have to use Deadly Force I will do what I need to regardless of the cost to me to protect myself the ones I love.  This is why I am a Sheepdog and not a sheep.

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Brad Eden
I applied, jumped through the required hoops, and got my CCW permit. The main reason I got it is I was trapping at the time and the commotion of having to have the pistol in view unloaded, and all the other requirements were a PIA. But I rarely if ever carry. Actually I cant remember the last time I did purposely carry concealed. But and a big but is I am glad I legally can if I ever choose to.

This isn't about carrying.

Its about what happens after you pull the trigger.

I understand--yet I admit to skim reading your post. I just took the time to read it thoroughly.

I wonder if most would carry if they thought about these things everytime they strapped a piece on. I really think concealed guns are a ticking time bomb in your pocket.

I'm generally cognizant, yet dont dwell on the consequence as you wrote and my answer is no--that wouldn't stop me from carrying.

 

If I was carrying and I had to defend myself or someone I cared about or some random people cowering under the tables at a McDonalds because some whackfest was peppering the joint w/bullets then I woudnt really be thinking about the consequences either.

And who is saying you would have to pull the trigger?

Sometimes just a show of force is enough. No?

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WPG Gizmo

Here is something you should read it is long but there is a great amount of very good info in it

Gun control fact

This is a portion of the report

└ Vulnerability to Violent Crime

* At the current homicide rate, roughly one in every 240 Americans will be murdered.[23]

* A U.S. Justice Department study based on crime data from 1974-1985 found:

• 42% of Americans will be the victim of a completed violent crime (assault, robbery, rape) in the course of their lives

• 83% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime

• 52% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime more than once[24]

* A 1997 survey of more than 18,000 prison inmates found that among those serving time for a violent crime, "30% of State offenders and 35% of Federal offenders carried a firearm when committing the crime."[25]

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PartridgeCartridge

I spent 11 years in the Marines as a Military Policeman on a base that had over 100,000 people.  I worked my way from Pvt up to Platoon Sgt and was in command of one of the 4 MP shifts we had.  In that time I was there I had the chance to work more then a few Rapes, Robbery's and Murders of both military, dependents and civilians.  Had most of these folks been able to defend themselves it is likely that there would have been less for me to investigate.

I have carried for well over 25 years and I am well aware of the issues of Deadly Force and the requirements to use it.  There are 3 requirements to deadly force that had better be present otherwise your in big trouble.

Ability, Opportunity, and Intent. All three factors must be present to justify deadly force.  The person you use Deadly Force against needs to have the Ability (i.e. a weapon of some sort) The Opportunity (i.e. can they utilize this weapon) and the Intent ( i.e. have they in some way shown they intend to use this weapon) 2 out of 3 is not good enough all 3 must be present to use deadly force.

Deadly Force is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm.

The use of deadly force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort, when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed.

Firearms, bladed weapons, explosives, and vehicles are among those weapons the use of which is considered deadly force.

The use of non-weapons in an aggressive manner, such as a baseball bat or tire iron, may also be considered deadly force.

"Use of deadly force" is often granted to police forces when the person or persons in question are believed to be an immediate danger to people around them. For example, an armed man in a shopping mall shooting at random without regard to the safety of the people around him, and refusing or being unwilling to negotiate, would likely warrant usage of deadly force, as a means to prevent further danger to the community. In the United States this is governed by Tennessee v. Garner, which said that "deadly force...may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

In the United States, a civilian may legally use deadly force when it is considered justifiable homicide, that is to say when the civilian feels their own life, or the lives of their family or those around them are in legitimate and imminent danger. However, self-defense resulting in usage of deadly force by a civilian or civilians against an individual or individuals is often subject to examination by a court if it is unclear whether it was necessary at the point of the offense, and whether any further action on the part of the law needs to be taken.

I will continue to carry and if one day it happens that I have to use Deadly Force I will do what I need to regardless of the cost to me to protect myself the ones I love.  This is why I am a Sheepdog and not a sheep.

Now thats the talk of a man trained in the use of deady force. Thanks Gary.

BTW, the three elements you described only apply to states with a Castle Doctrine. In non doctrine states, the requirements are even more stringent.

But it just goes to show how vulnerable a casual carrier is to prosecution and possible incarceration.

For example, I betcha some members on this Topic never even heard of those requirements, prior to this very minute. And even if they did, how much threat assessment experience would they have under a stressfull encounter?

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