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Conservation Plan For Western Sage Grouse Revised

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whiskyjack

For an example of how sage grouse and oil/gas do not mix, just look at the situation here in SE Alberta. Our safe grouse population has crashed be to the point where they are listed as Endangered. Very intensive oil/gas exploration as well as roads and trails fragmenting the landscape have been very detrimental to the bird. Granted, there other issues at play as well but, oil/gas is the big one.

We have a recovery plan going but it will take a long time to recover if ever.

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Chukarman

Rape first, apologize later... if needed.

 

The "committee" is staffed by Oil and Gas people and this is the end of any remotely reasonable "PLAN" to reduce the damage being done to sage grouse populations. Kiss 'em goodbye.

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Kansas Big Dog
9 minutes ago, Chukarman said:

Rape first, apologize later... if needed.

 

Who is doing the raping? We the consumer of fossil fuels or those that met our demand for the fossil fuels?

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Randy S

Saying that the consumer of 100 gallons of fossil fuel is responsible for a gas well being drilled on public land is a difficult rationale to grasp. We were buying fossil fuels for 100 years before our government decided that the US needed to become independent from foreign producers. I don't and won't study fuel production and consumption analysis for the sake of a discussion, but I do believe the US has already set a new world standard for fossil fuel prices. The demand by producers for even more access isn't about meeting consumer demand, it's about reducing the costs associated with private land drilling by lobbying for cheap access to public land in an effort to increase profit. I refuse to accept responsibility, under any presentation, for corporate greed.

 

 

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NVChukarChaser

I'll bet that we see multiple seasons closed in Nevada next year. Worst season I have ever seen here. They are really struggling here. Very sad to see. I hunted a favorite flat Saturday full of memories of great dogs and hunt. Last year we saw plenty of birds in there and all day Saturday I never moved a game bird. 

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MTRookie76
1 hour ago, NVChukarChaser said:

I'll bet that we see multiple seasons closed in Nevada next year. Worst season I have ever seen here. They are really struggling here. Very sad to see. I hunted a favorite flat Saturday full of memories of great dogs and hunt. Last year we saw plenty of birds in there and all day Saturday I never moved a game bird. 

It must be all that oil and gas drilling in NV. What a shame.

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snapt

I'm curious about the economics of energy these days...politics aside. The 'EPA' just announced we're bringing back coal, but economists say its not regulation but low demand that truly killed the industry. The largest customer, China, has announced aggressive emissions reform goals. Now with gas, GM and Ford have plans for the majority of their cars to be hybrid if not electric by 2040...I don't see natural gas going anywhere but perhaps if the economics of this situations truly play out we're going to see a major shift in our fuel demands sooner than later?

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Chukarman
16 hours ago, Kansas Big Dog said:

 

Who is doing the raping?

 

The Federal and state governments and energy companies are hand in hand in this. More than 75% of current leases are not yet developed. How do you think the sage grouse will fare when the PUBLIC lands are fully 'developed'?

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barna
4 hours ago, snapt said:

I'm curious about the economics of energy these days...politics aside. The 'EPA' just announced we're bringing back coal, but economists say its not regulation but low demand that truly killed the industry. The largest customer, China, has announced aggressive emissions reform goals. Now with gas, GM and Ford have plans for the majority of their cars to be hybrid if not electric by 2040...I don't see natural gas going anywhere but perhaps if the economics of this situations truly play out we're going to see a major shift in our fuel demands sooner than later?

China is pulling all taxes from hybrid and electric vehicles sold domestically to reduce the emissions.  There should be surge of electric and hybrids, but the electric vehicles are charged mostly by coal fired plants in China so there is not that much gain. 

I think there is a lot more to be gained by emission controls and fuel efficiency, if you look at the trend for the last 20 years the MGP of all vehicles has improved considerably along with emissions. Honda just put out their new Accord with a turbo and a 10 speed automatic transmission, the MPG is very close to their hybrid vehicle, which uses a similar engine anyway.

 

The best thing to do is let the free market and competition decide, government involvement only makes things worse and prohibits the development of truly innovative ideas by subsidizing bad ideas that would never make it in the free market environment.

All this green energy is like communism, sounds great in theory until you have to live under its constrictions.   When I see Al Gore's fat a$$ peddling a bike down the road then I may listen. :ph34r:

 

Barna

 

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Kansas Big Dog
22 hours ago, Randy S said:

Saying that the consumer of 100 gallons of fossil fuel is responsible for a gas well being drilled on public land is a difficult rationale to grasp.

The increase in gas is due to more gas fired electric power plants due to the Obama Power Plant rule. Natural gas is now the largest source of fuel for electric generation.

 

From US Energy Information Administration

 

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

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Kansas Big Dog
On 10/10/2017 at 10:29 AM, Chukarman said:

 

The Federal and state governments and energy companies are hand in hand in this. More than 75% of current leases are not yet developed. How do you think the sage grouse will fare when the PUBLIC lands are fully 'developed'?

 

Really, not the folks who are using the resource. If we don't want them to supply the resource, we need to quit demanding it.

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Chukarman
10 hours ago, Kansas Big Dog said:

 

Really, not the folks who are using the resource. If we don't want them to supply the resource, we need to quit demanding it.

 

Gas from leases on Public Lands is much cheaper than gas from private land leases. What is happening is NOT sustainable and when this source of gas is exhausted will anyone undertake to restore the land and nurture the few remaining sage grouse in re-populating it? Or will it be an industrial wasteland? Judging by past experience, I'd say most likely the latter.

 

Fro Example: 32.5 MILLION acres of leases in Wyoming (according to the BLM) have been sold to date. Here is what the selling price is...

 

From the BLM web site: "The BLM state and regional offices hold quarterly oil and gas lease sales if they have parcels available. The revenue reported includes the first year's rent of $1.50 per acre, a bonus bid of not less than $2 an acre, and an administrative fee. Revenues are split between the state where the drilling occurs and the U.S. Treasury. I wonder if I could get such a good deal on leasing public land - even if I wasn't going to 'develop' it?  If so, I'll take 10,000 acres right now.

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Kansas Big Dog
1 hour ago, Chukarman said:

Gas from leases on Public Lands is much cheaper than gas from private land leases.

 

Do you mean much less to produce? I am sure the gas is sold at market price, why would an extraction company sell the gas for less?

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Kansas Big Dog
1 hour ago, Chukarman said:

What is happening is NOT sustainable and when this source of gas is exhausted will anyone undertake to restore the land and nurture the few remaining sage grouse in re-populating it? Or will it be an industrial wasteland?

 

IMHO, any type of fossil fuel usage is not sustainable. It will run out sometime. As far as restoring the land after the gas is extracted, I am pretty sure that they are required to do this. Where I grew up in WC Missouri, coal mining companies surface mined coal there for years. Initially, for many years, there was no restoration and the land that was mined was pit hills of over burden and pits full of water. Brush and trees grew back in the pit hills and the mined land became very valuable, much more than before mining for the hunting and fishing. Then, in the 1980's I believe the Feds began requiring the mining companies to restore the ground back to original. Before the land was mined, it was farm ground. So, it was restored to farm ground after the land was mined. No wildlife or fishing on the restored land and the restored land is worth less than what it was worth before mining.

 

So,  I am pretty sure the land will need to be restored. I think the mining companies even have to put the funds up for restoration before the extraction can commences.

 

Here is some info on reclamation .

 

http://www.oilandgasbmps.org/resources/reclamation.php

 

Overview: Oil and Gas Lands and Reclamation

 

In the semiarid lands of the Rocky Mountain Region of the United States, precipitation rates, soil organic matter, and biomass are low, making successful reclamation of disturbed lands challenging. Reclamation specialists have been working under the guidance of the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act to restore lands disturbed from mining activities since the 1970s. In contrast, the reclamation of oil and gas lands is not regulated through a uniform federal act, and the resulting regulatory structure is complex and can be confusing. Additionally, the total surface disturbance from oil and gas development has the potential to exceed the area of land disturbed from mining activities. These factors, along with questions of invasive species and drought, deepen the challenge of achieving reclamation success.

 

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barna

The feds use the funds from the oil and gas leases to fund the BLM, park service and other areas of the public land that are under their management.   On one  hand we support public lands to remain in fed hands, but then we complain the way they are used to pay for the management.    

 

 

Barna

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