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      TO THOSE REGISTERING FOR MEMBERSHIP ON UJ   01/06/2018

      To the Guests who have decided to register for Membership. PLEASE add more info than just  "hunting" or "Upland hunting" or "birds" or "outdoors" or similar nebulous terms in the required INTERESTS field. Despite this Boards strong spam filtering it is not bullet proof, so Spam registrations do sneak through. I need an inkling that you are a warm blooded human being not a Spam Bot tagging onto key words. Thank you.
sprocket

Starting a retreiver from scratch - recommendations wanted

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Rick Hall

Pat, my twelve gun dogs to date (even the beagle) have all retrieved reliably to hand, and only one, a Brittany that would drop to shake coming out of the water no matter what tricks I tried to break the habit, has needed anything like formal training to hold until told to "give".  In his case we began by physically forcing him to hold a short piece of PVC pipe very briefly and praising as if he'd done it on his own.  We initially did it before natural rewards like feeding or going outside (just like "sit") and as he became accustomed to holding the pipe, moved on to his holding it while I watched the tube or after airing in the yard and on walks.  Eventually substituted the bumper for the pipe on those exercises, and the new habit was conditioned and dropping to shake issue was behind us.

 

Other than that one dog, an "Ut" (one of our "bads") for dropping and popping the bumper back in Pup's mouth has been about as forceful as I've had to get.  But the big thing is that I conspire to get delivery to hand from their very first retrieves on and build that good habit on easy successes.  I simply don't allow bad habits that will "clean up with force-fetch" develop, as so many employing that tool do.

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Rick Hall
19 hours ago, Hal Standish said:

In comparision between Upland and Non-slip events as an entrant in either test or trial in upland at least the entrant gets his entry moneys worth in fresh birds. I have attended some HRC events where some form of discount should have been offered because of the poor quality and putrid condition of the test birds. After all the folks that ran late in the test running order did not receive the same value in test birds as the folks that ran early in the event. Yet they paid the same amount in entry fees.

When ever I have brought this up with my retriever friends I usually just get a blank stare. 

 

Just "how it's always been," and I'm sure most of us would rather deal with it than pay for eight fresh mallards at the Finished level.  It's really a non issue for pros and serious gamers who train almost daily with nasty birds.   And, I believe because most of today's US training programs look like complicated engineering projects, the great majority of dogs seen at even Hunting Retriever Club ("by hunters, for hunters"?) tests are trained by pros, and the great majority of the remaining "amateur" trainers would list dog training as their primary pastime and frequently train with pros. 

 

 

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Hal Standish
17 hours ago, Rick Hall said:

 

Just "how it's always been," and I'm sure most of us would rather deal with it than pay for eight fresh mallards at the Finished level.  It's really a non issue for pros and serious gamers who train almost daily with nasty birds. (That Is not the point) Entry fees should still provide equity among those that are entered.

 

 

 

 

WOW! That is the equivalent of the blank stare I get when ask that question of my retriever buddies. Is that the same way you approach restaurants or grocery stores. " most of us would rather deal with it than pay for eight fresh mallards". Even the grocery store discounts out of date food stocks, though i'm not much on sour milk.

If it were me I pay for fresh birds anytime. and i think if you look at the numbers it would be more like 4 birds. As an Entrant I had already paid my entry fee, the let the clubs figure out how much more funds in fees they to charge to make it equitable for all involved. Be more than happy to pay a little more for fresh birds.  

This con job on birds at the test happens at all levels of testing Started Season Finished, AKC or HRC. 

Good thing this is an Upland Forum I have no idea where this would go if it was an honest to goodness retriever site.

 

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Rick Hall

"Wow,"  is right.  Why not pose your question on http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?24-RTF-Retriever-Training-Forum and find out.

 

As I'm pretty sure I've noted above, I actively discourage my dogs from messing with carrion.  Wouldn't even let a pup sniff a bird wing without mild rebuke, much less retrieve one.  And back in the days when pigeons were used, a dog of mine failed a Finished test for his response to a sun baked half-naked leftover from the day before.  But you'll not see me crying over the need to adapt to well-used birds or the other ways hunt testing varies from hunting.  If I want to play their game, I need to adapt to how the good folks providing it feel it's best perpetuated, and they plainly feel providing fresh ducks for everyone would increase costs and decrease participation - to include mine.   We usually train a bit with funky birds before testing and always discourage messing with them in the field, and it all manages to work out just fine. 

 

 

 

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Brad Eden

Great Topic. Deserving of being Pinned quite frankly. Feeling testy though, Lets please keep it on the right track. Thanks.

 

(BTW...FWIW... I did a light FF with a female springer once. She was very hard on birds if they werent stone cold dead on retrieve. It helped quite a bit.)

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Rick Hall

C'mon, Brad, a message board thread that stayed on topic would be as much of a unicorn as a gun dog game that could actually "provide equity among those that are entered".  But I suppose we do seem to be wandering into a dark hollow. 

 

How 'bout them Yankees?

 

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Brad Eden

Oh Rick...gots nuttin to do with any wandering...which is what makes discussion forums interesting...and everything do with what I sensed is a couple Members getting testy. Modest shot across the bow...it's what I always do... tis my job. Carry on. Yankees suck.

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sprocket
57 minutes ago, Brad Eden said:

Oh Rick...gots nuttin to do with any wandering...which is what makes discussion forums interesting...and everything do with what I sensed is a couple Members getting testy. Modest shot across the bow...it's what I always do... tis my job. Carry on. The Yankees suck.

 

FIFY - As a New Englander, I get called a Yankee by southerners ;)

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Rick Hall
1 hour ago, sprocket said:

 

FIFY - As a New Englander, I get called a Yankee by southerners ;)

 

Could be worse, being a proud West Virginian by birth and inclination, I was a "damn hillbilly" before moving down here and being demoted to "Yankee".

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Rick Hall
2 hours ago, Brad Eden said:

Oh Rick...gots nuttin to do with any wandering...which is what makes discussion forums interesting...and everything do with what I sensed is a couple Members getting testy.

 

Hense my "dark hollow" reference, though I really had thought we were doing a pretty fair job of keeping the gloves on and no one's ear was bitten.

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sprocket

Difference between a Damn Yankee and a Yankee?

Yankees go home...

 

Back OT - Thanks for all the information passed along here - I'm trying to be patient with the whole process of teaching but I'm learning a lot too.

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Hal Standish
8 hours ago, Rick Hall said:

C'mon, Brad, a message board thread that stayed on topic would be as much of a unicorn as a gun dog game that could actually "provide equity among those that are entered".  But I suppose we do seem to be wandering into a dark hollow. 

 

How 'bout them Yankees?

 

 

Rick, Contrair contrair, The American system of dogs game is based on equity and fairness. where it get's skewed is with a culture/Dog Club trying to save money.   Using day old birds for the sake of saving money and expediency seems a bit odd to my American value system.  I would not pay full retail for sour milk, or rotten tomatoes Go to a spaniel event in the gallery among other things that are notice is the quality of birds being flush. Many time i have heard or even ask "Where did these great birds come from" or "Who sold'em these rags"!

Good dogs, Good Cover, Good birds makes for a great day. That is all I'm saying

 

 

Sprocket, help your pup become all it can be!

 

Brad this was not going over the top..No reason for it. It's just the Hot stove league in action 17 degrees here just my key board warm!

And yes The Yankees have really improve themselves.

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Cold Iron

Compared to most websites dedicated to retriever training this is the most civil discourse I have ever witnessed on the conflicting views, very well done.

 

At the end of the day the Force Fetch always wins on those sites though :ph34r: And several know what website I am talking about LOL, bet money on it.

 

Train a Toller to retrieve what are you nuts?! Toller owners suffer from repetitive joint injuries the dogs make them throw so much. Tollers are extremely intelligent and easy to train. Until they get bored and want to do things their own way. Which usually involves training the owner instead of the other way around. Using food and often clicker training you can do a lot of behavior shaping. 

 

 

Over the last quarter century they have become more biddable and willing to please. Like many retrievers the retrieve can also be the reward. Here is a great video of someone using retrieving objects to reward her dog for training in the weave poles. The Toller is one of the few breeds that can give the border collie a run for the money in Agility.

 

 

Before I forget many on that "other" site will not duck hunt in a blind with a first year dog. Mainly because fear of developing bad habits and obedience not being solid enough yet. Tollers have a different issue the Toller Scream when they get excited. These guys are actually pretty mild with the Toller Scream. 

 

 

You can and will need to teach them to be quiet in the blind without curbing their enthusiasm and excitment. Because if your not careful you will nix it, fine line that it is.

 

My last Toller which is now 3 I promised someone I would try the British training method on and did. Using the Clicker Trained Retrieve. Easy enough. Until a pheasant spured him. Same as my last Toller although he was a lot older when it happened. It is all fun and games until someone gets hurt and then the British method fails IME.

 

I can put him on dead birds all day long. Throw dead ducks no problem. But let the bird have even a little bit of twitch of life in him and the dog is going to make sure that bird is dead. Put him back into clicker training with bumpers no problem. Dead birds no problem. Let the bird twitch... Houston we have a problem.

 

That is what Force Fetch takes care of.

 

Robert Milner of the canoe labs fame is a big fan of the British method and has a decent article here. And I don't necessarily disagree with much of what he says. But notice the Cooperative Nature part. I brought it up before and will continue to do so. A Toller is not a Lab. And I don't want them to be LOL.

 

It often comes down to Mike Lardy Total Retriver Training or Evan Graham Smartworks training method but there are others. Bill Hillman early training as a pup is good. What ever you use need to use a methodology that builds on itself that is why there are steps in every program. Especially collar conditioning. 

 

Years ago I started my first dog with Richard Wolters books as did many others here before the ecollar etc. Remember however that is based on the believe that your dog wants to please you and loves everything you do :-) And your dog may, you have to determine what it is that YOU want out of him. The British method may work for you. If it doesn't and you end up going with Force Fetch I would recommend using someone like Irishwhistler for your first dog and talking to him about which program he prefers. 

 

If YOU know what you want out of your dog then nothing wrong with trying the British method IMO. FF and Smartworks will still be around if you need or want it later.

 

Have fun and make sure the dog is having fun. And it isn't a race. The Toller needs a job, agility and rally also help in the training and obedience department. Did I mention obedience?

 

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sprocket

Mike Thanks for the postings - I'd love to talk live...

You know that point in the video where the guy dips his toes in the pol but you know he's gonna end up swimming?  My foot just hit the water...

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Rick Hall
11 hours ago, Hal Standish said:

 

Rick, Contrair contrair, The American system of dogs game is based on equity and fairness. where it get's skewed is with a culture/Dog Club trying to save money.   Using day old birds for the sake of saving money and expediency seems a bit odd to my American value system.  I would not pay full retail for sour milk, or rotten tomatoes Go to a spaniel event in the gallery among other things that are notice is the quality of birds being flush. Many time i have heard or even ask "Where did these great birds come from" or "Who sold'em these rags"!

 

The clubs "save money" to stay viable.  Simple as that.  No one's pocketing a profit, everyone's trying to provide tests that will draw entries.  If someone thinks reusing birds is "sour milk," they'd probably find lots of other reasons to feel screwed, as well.

 

And there can be no real equity in any of the gun dog games. 

 

Never been to a spaniel event, but I'd bet something mighty shiny that some dogs run early in the day, when the air is cool and moist - or the birds may be soaked with dew, and some run late on hot afternoons when their tongues are hanging.  If they're all running the same course, its fresh for the first dog and trampled and stunk up for the last, and if they're not all running the same course, then they're not all running the same course.  And I don't care what your bird source, they're not all going to act equally.  Is any of that "equitable"?  Only in the sense that it's part of same game everyone has to live with if they want to have a game to play.

 

From a practical standpoint, since most everyone running a retriever test either trains with funky birds as a matter of course or quickly learns to train for them, the most reasonable gripe about old birds involves their use in water tests, where nearly sunken marks are harder for the dogs to locate once in the area of the fall, and most, if not all, judges strive to avoid that by using the freshest birds on water and the questionable ones on land. 

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