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    • Brad Eden

      TO THOSE REGISTERING FOR MEMBERSHIP ON UJ   01/06/2018

      To the Guests who have decided to register for Membership. PLEASE read Terms of Service, not just checking it off. This is covered there: Add more info than just "hunting" or "Upland hunting" or "birds" or "outdoors" or similar nebulous terms in the required INTERESTS field. Despite this Boards strong spam filtering function, some Spam registrations do sneak through. I need an inkling that you are a human being not a Spam Bot tagging onto key words. Also please do not use a business name as your User Name. Thank you.
Hal Standish

Hot Stove League for Trialers.

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Grifish
3 hours ago, jackiep said:

How exciting that you will be working on your first trialing dog soon!

Wish Ollie was a bit closer to us....I am sure he will produce some fine puppies.

Thanks Jackie!

I’m excited. We went for the dough with Ollie’s first mating, and kicked ourselves. Now we just have to pick a winner out of his next mating and not take one home from each!

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Hal Standish
9 hours ago, welsh said:

Gypsy, now 19 mos. Won her puppy stake in the fall & on track to run open & amateur in the spring ... cash flow permitting. :)

 

Have to figger out how to post a pic here....

 

 

 

 

Figger the cash flow, is a lot tuffer than figger how to post pics let me tell you!9_9

Best of luck with your project dog!

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Hal Standish
13 hours ago, Hal Standish said:

 

Do not even talk about the money, it is better not know. Been there and bought the...oh heck a couple of farms.

 

As for Zeta I would rather wait on that announcement until I am sure we are going ahead with the breeding. I am still not certain it's what we really want to do.

 

Was rushed on time when i posted and would to expand on this breeding in question.

One of our biggest concerns in breeding Zeta girl, is the pups. Over the years Nancy and I have had 12 litters of FBESS. In every case I was in a a position as Pro to start and/or in many cases assists new owners with their pups training...The pups could stay we me or the owners would attend my training classes offered on year round bases. I have always felt that any breeder worth his stripes should provide training service for the product that he/she produces. After all we put the stud to the bitch we should back up our claims of what a great breeding this was, now let's git'er done  in the field. I have retired from the training ranks and am no longer in a position to help with training in a hands on way. And quite honestly have lost the fire and passion to build pet hunting dogs, pet dog folks have a lack of standards that is, well uninspiring.   

Though we would still love to make one of Zeta's babies as good as she and Zeta's dam Thistle. After all there is always room for another Champion in our home.

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sxsneubaum
8 hours ago, Grifish said:

Thanks Jackie!

I’m excited. We went for the dough with Ollie’s first mating, and kicked ourselves. Now we just have to pick a winner out of his next mating and not take one home from each!

 

The only reason I have a litter is to keep a pup, so good luck with that.  

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Flairball

I’m making headway with Bailey. At 6 months I’m not putting much pressure on him, just having fun. Been working on the basics; pattern, recall, whistle work, and non-slip steady. So far he turns on the whistle, recalls on the whistle, sometimes stops on the whistle, is bold in cover, and is pretty darn non-slip steady. I’m working more on recall as of late, because he gets playful sometimes when I let him retrieve. 

 

Sorry, no pics. 

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Hal Standish
12 hours ago, Flairball said:

I’m making headway with Bailey. At 6 months I’m not putting much pressure on him, just having fun. Been working on the basics; pattern, recall, whistle work, and non-slip steady. So far he turns on the whistle, recalls on the whistle, sometimes stops on the whistle, is bold in cover, and is pretty darn non-slip steady. I’m working more on recall as of late, because he gets playful sometimes when I let him retrieve. 

 

Sorry, no pics. 

 

I like what I read here, however over the last almost 4 decades I have heard this many times( see bold) amazingly with all the areas you are working at 6 months of age. I have always encouraged owners to tighten the bolts down a wee bit with each session. And that can be done without actually touching a wrench. Find out what kind of temperament and personalty you have as soon as possible. Having fun is OK but it really does not build the dog up. If this dog is a trial prospect great find out right now. If it is a pet-hunter great find out right now.

By tightening the bolts in other words challenging your pup each session to be better. The good ones will always respond in kind. And You will be able to critically analysis what you have in the way of talent levels. Plan your work work your plan!

 

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Flairball
1 hour ago, Hal Standish said:

 

I like what I read here, however over the last almost 4 decades I have heard this many times( see bold) amazingly with all the areas you are working at 6 months of age. I have always encouraged owners to tighten the bolts down a wee bit with each session. And that can be done without actually touching a wrench. Find out what kind of temperament and personalty you have as soon as possible. Having fun is OK but it really does not build the dog up. If this dog is a trial prospect great find out right now. If it is a pet-hunter great find out right now.

By tightening the bolts in other words challenging your pup each session to be better. The good ones will always respond in kind. And You will be able to critically analysis what you have in the way of talent levels. Plan your work work your plan!

 

I don’t disagree at all. I’m not putting much pressure on him right now. It will come. I’ve been watching him to see where, and how much pressure I might need to use when the time comes. I’d like to say it’ll come sooner than later, but it’s all situational, and right now 5 straight days of temps in the single digits with no warm up in sight means we won’t be spending too much time outdoors training. Yesterday’s training session took place in the training room at the kennel. That said, one area where I have ramped up the pressure is in the house with everyday commands and expectations, which will help in the future. 

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jackiep
3 hours ago, Hal Standish said:

 

I like what I read here, however over the last almost 4 decades I have heard this many times( see bold) amazingly with all the areas you are working at 6 months of age. I have always encouraged owners to tighten the bolts down a wee bit with each session. And that can be done without actually touching a wrench. Find out what kind of temperament and personalty you have as soon as possible. Having fun is OK but it really does not build the dog up. If this dog is a trial prospect great find out right now. If it is a pet-hunter great find out right now.

By tightening the bolts in other words challenging your pup each session to be better. The good ones will always respond in kind. And You will be able to critically analysis what you have in the way of talent levels. Plan your work work your plan!

 

Interesting what you are saying here especially considering I find myself being very critical of my 6 month old's talents over the past week or so and although I told myself I would just let him grow up and have fun I am quickly realizing that there is quite a bit of work that needs to be done with him and it really needs to start now.  I am thinking he will need to step up to the plate and show me that talent by about 9 months old or I will have to re think his future.   

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Pat Berry
5 minutes ago, jackiep said:

Interesting what you are saying here especially considering I find myself being very critical of my 6 month old's talents over the past week or so and although I told myself I would just let him grow up and have fun I am quickly realizing that there is quite a bit of work that needs to be done with him and it really needs to start now.  I am thinking he will need to step up to the plate and show me that talent by about 9 months old or I will have to re think his future.   

 

What are your concerns right now as you asses his talents?

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Pat Berry

The different rates of progression for advancing a pup through training are remarkable to me. I have heard all of this from various people about one of my dogs in the same general time frame:

 

"You've advanced your dog too quickly."

"You're moving along your dog too slowly."

 

"Your dog it too tight."

"Your dog is too loose."

 

"You're overdoing it with drills."

"You don't spend enough time doing drills."


"You clearly have a wonderful relationship with your dog!"

"You have no relationship with your dog."

 

"You need to let him run a bigger downwind pattern."

"If your dog is running that huge downwind pattern right now at this age, you're screwed."

 

And on and on. Some of the comments are from pros, other comments from people who have never placed a dog in a trial or couldn't even teach a dog to sit. 

 

In general, the challenge for me is to take it more slowly. I have been fortunate to acquire smart, biddable dogs who like to work and like to be challenged. And then I end up spending time around season pros who move their prospects through a regimented program at an alarming rate, washing out dogs that can't take the pressure. And then I feel as though I must be doing something wrong or failing my dog if I'm not making the same progress. Not so much this time. While I don't know if I could/should be doing more with the pup at this age, I am less worried about it and more focused on spending time together and building a relationship. Hopefully, it will all work out.

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jackiep
20 minutes ago, Pat Berry said:

 

What are your concerns right now as you asses his talents?

Well although he does have retrieving desire I feel that that desire should be stronger.  I can only compare him to my older dog and she absolutely loved to retrieve at his age.   I know not all dogs are created equal and maybe he is just a bit slower to mature.

The good news is he is very fast and very biddable.  

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jackiep
27 minutes ago, Pat Berry said:

The different rates of progression for advancing a pup through training are remarkable to me. I have heard all of this from various people about one of my dogs in the same general time frame:

 

"You've advanced your dog too quickly."

"You're moving along your dog too slowly."

 

"Your dog it too tight."

"Your dog is too loose."

 

"You're overdoing it with drills."

"You don't spend enough time doing drills."


"You clearly have a wonderful relationship with your dog!"

"You have no relationship with your dog."

 

"You need to let him run a bigger downwind pattern."

"If your dog is running that huge downwind pattern right now at this age, you're screwed."

 

And on and on. Some of the comments are from pros, other comments from people who have never placed a dog in a trial or couldn't even teach a dog to sit. 

 

In general, the challenge for me is to take it more slowly. I have been fortunate to acquire smart, biddable dogs who like to work and like to be challenged. And then I end up spending time around season pros who move their prospects through a regimented program at an alarming rate, washing out dogs that can't take the pressure. And then I feel as though I must be doing something wrong or failing my dog if I'm not making the same progress. Not so much this time. While I don't know if I could/should be doing more with the pup at this age, I am less worried about it and more focused on spending time together and building a relationship. Hopefully, it will all work out.

Good post and I can see what you are saying .  It really is very difficult to know how much pressure to put on a pup and how much is too much.  

The other part is the natural ability of a puppy.  I would be interested in what others think are the most important qualities in a puppy (6 to 12 months old) when assessing them for a field trial prospect.

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Hal Standish

The words pressure and talents have come through this thread. would be good to understand each concept.

 

"Pressure" What is it? Is it the same as Force? 

 

"Talent" is genetically decided at birth, yet developed thru training or destroyed by training. Nose Flush Mouth Marking ability are talents. There are others as well 

 

Steadiness, delivery of bird. running pattern are behaviors. each can be produce through training  There are others as well some enduring some annoying.

 

The words pressure and talents have come through this thread. would be good to understand each concept

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Pat Berry
2 hours ago, Hal Standish said:

The words pressure and talents have come through this thread. would be good to understand each concept.

 

"Pressure" What is it? Is it the same as Force? 

 

"Talent" is genetically decided at birth, yet developed thru training or destroyed by training. Nose Flush Mouth Marking ability are talents. There are others as well 

 

Steadiness, delivery of bird. running pattern are behaviors. each can be produce through training  There are others as well some enduring some annoying.

 

The words pressure and talents have come through this thread. would be good to understand each concept

 

I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone explain these two concepts and never seen them described somewhere in detail. Plus, I think everyone would view each concept differently.

 

Over the last 3 years I have gunned a number of times in training for one of the top national pros, and when I hear him talk about pressure to his clients, it appears to be more expansive than one might initially assume. It's not just the negative reinforcement of trying to get a dog to do something-- it's also the prohibition of letting the dog do something it really wants to do. The act of steadiness, by itself, can be thought of as a form of pressure. So are line steady drills with multiple dogs. And so on.

 

Regarding talent, listening to different pros explain what they do and don't like in a dog is informative about the variability of what people actually consider "talent." I know some pros are less interested in "Nose Flush Mouth Marking" than they are in temperament, intelligence, and the ability to take pressure. They can train the rest, or handle in ways that compensate for shortfalls. Others would put speed and style at the top of the list. But as someone primarily looking for a hunting dog who lives in the house, I guess I would look for temperament as the highest priority and hope for a good nose, intense drive, strong retrieving desire, and natural ability to use the wind and cover ground.

 

Anyway, since you're the pro, Hal, and would be more curious what you think!

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Hal Standish
3 hours ago, Pat Berry said:

 

I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone explain these two concepts and never seen them described somewhere in detail. Plus, I think everyone would view each concept differently.

 

Over the last 3 years I have gunned a number of times in training for one of the top national pros, and when I hear him talk about pressure to his clients, it appears to be more expansive than one might initially assume. It's not just the negative reinforcement of trying to get a dog to do something-- it's also the prohibition of letting the dog do something it really wants to do. The act of steadiness, by itself, can be thought of as a form of pressure. So are line steady drills with multiple dogs. And so on.

 

Regarding talent, listening to different pros explain what they do and don't like in a dog is informative about the variability of what people actually consider "talent." I know some pros are less interested in "Nose Flush Mouth Marking" than they are in temperament, intelligence, and the ability to take pressure. They can train the rest, or handle in ways that compensate for shortfalls. Others would put speed and style at the top of the list. But as someone primarily looking for a hunting dog who lives in the house, I guess I would look for temperament as the highest priority and hope for a good nose, intense drive, strong retrieving desire, and natural ability to use the wind and cover ground.

 

 

 

 

Right-on! First of all i'm not writing a book. Just trying to start a conversation. . And all that you say are correct. Every one in the game has their likes and no-biggies.Talent can be debated till the pigeons come home..No wait we train spaniels pigeons do not come home . 

You mentioned in your post "the ability to take pressure". Is that pressure a gruff voice, or healing whip stick or an e-collar set on high? 

Is pressure just run of the mill Force breaking using an ear pinch on a young dog say 5-6 months of age?

Is it steadying dogs with the e-collar or challenging dogs while not running the pattern correctly?

Gun dog guys are always interested in nose. It is the appliance that gives the dog drive to search and find.

These are sum of the areas I wanted to start a dialogue in.

 

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