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      TO THOSE REGISTERING FOR MEMBERSHIP ON UJ   01/06/2018

      To the Guests who have decided to register for Membership. PLEASE add more info than just  "hunting" or "Upland hunting" or "birds" or "outdoors" or similar nebulous terms in the required INTERESTS field. Despite this Boards strong spam filtering it is not bullet proof, so Spam registrations do sneak through. I need an inkling that you are a warm blooded human being not a Spam Bot tagging onto key words. Thank you.
Hal Standish

Hot Stove League for Trialers.

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sxsneubaum

I'm with Pat on the contradictory information that one hears.  I don't know much about trials and dogs, but some things I've heard, I even know are questionable.  Don Bramwell told me that until a person runs in 50 trials they don't know what's going on.  At first I thought that was a bit excessive, now I believe it.  I'm almost to the 50 trial mark and I still don't know what's going on. 

The other thing I can tell you is that just because you "train" with a group of people that "trial", that doesn't mean that training is actually taking place.  I had to re-learn everything I ever thought about handling a dog when I was exposed to actual trialers.  Usually It's simply a group of people running dogs. I have had to make adjustments before I go with a group.  Get a plan of what I want to accomplish that day and filter out the noise and define my intent on that run. 

Regarding talent and pressure, that's as varied as those that "train".  One pro I know wants that dog steadied by 8 months old.  Another doesn't start steadying until the dog is a year old.  I understand that has to do with time and results.

For amateurs, this is where pressure enters, or the lack of pressure.  Amateurs feel they have time so they progress slowly.  That's not always the best plan, but it also has its upside.  I had a female that wasn't very good at all until she was almost 4.  But then she came on strong, she had weaknesses, but what dog doesn't it?  I think I'm in a similar situation at the moment.  I have a bitch, good breeding, not very good early development.  she's coming along quite slowly.  But she shows flashes and has the potential.  Where as my young pup, as long as I don't screw her up, is going to be trial ready far before the older bitch. 

 

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Hal Standish

 Hmm! how many dogs have you had to enter almost 50 trials?  I am not sure about the 50 trial mark when it comes to understanding the game. However because it is a situation that judging is done subjectively vs objectively there is no formula to follow.  Without a formula it does lengthen the learning curve for all involved. "In a more perfect manner" 

 

Once retrieve and recall are established, I am a fan of early steadying to W&S. Once those 3 behaviors are installed the trainer can move on to proper bird work with out to many distractions. At this time pups should have learn how to learned by going through the responsive recall, trained retrieve,  and steadying to W&S

I'm not a big fan of quartering unsteady pups on a regular basis,, once they are steady, then quartering can be overlay-ed along with marking.

It is in this bird work that real evaluation of dog talent can be made. Such as running style, speed, response on the corners and of course nose and  strength of flush.

 

 

 

 

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Pat Berry
On 1/1/2018 at 1:52 PM, Hal Standish said:

You mentioned in your post "the ability to take pressure". Is that pressure a gruff voice, or healing whip stick or an e-collar set on high? 

Is pressure just run of the mill Force breaking using an ear pinch on a young dog say 5-6 months of age?

Is it steadying dogs with the e-collar or challenging dogs while not running the pattern correctly?

 

 

Yes to all of the above, although I was thinking less about physical correction/negative reinforcement pressure and more pushing a dog along through an aggressive training progression. Regardless of method, a trained retrieve at 5-6 months of age could be viewed as a lot of pressure. Regardless of whether an e-collar is used, it take pressure to steady a dog. Requiring a dog to run a pattern that you want instead of a pattern they may naturally be inclined to run is a form of pressure.

 

It is expected that professional trainers will make progress and meet certain benchmarks. Depending on the dog, meeting those benchmarks-- regardless of how refined the method might seem-- can put in incredible amount of pressure on a young dog. It is simply not realistic to think that every pup will be obedience/collar conditioned by 5 months, force-fetched at 6 months, started on birds at 7 months, steadied at 8 months, and put through a bucket or other quartering program at 9-10 months. And yet that is sometimes the expectation of successful professional trainers. So what I might view as pressure: giving the pup a gruff voice for screwing around with a retrieve at 8 months... Is certainly a different level and degree of pressure comparatively.

 

And so it goes that amateurs will certainly question if they are really getting the most of their dog, also by comparison. Just what should I expect of my 9 month old pup right now? Everyone will have a different answer, and I will just hope I don't screw it up.

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Brad Eden
On 12/29/2017 at 9:19 PM, welsh said:

....

 

Have to figger out how to post a pic here....

 

 

 

PSA...As far as posting photos on this Board:

UJ is based on a voluntary Donation structure in order to survive. Donators ($25/year minimum) are placed in the Contributing Member Group and are able to upload photos directly to the UJ server and to Posts without the need for a photohost site, along with other enhanced functionality. Member Groups show under Avatar area in Posts.  Info here: UJ Member Groups, Donations & Priviliges Topic

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Brad Eden

Oh, I'm in Spaniel heaven on this thread!

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sxsneubaum

I've had a couple Hal and I'm in the high 20's. 

 

Learning curve? Knowing that I'm a novice I used to ask judges what "I could have done", dumbest thing I could do.  Talk about contradictory information from one judge to another. 

Entering this season what I am going to do is run my dog.  I know he's an exceptional bird finder.  I will run my dog the way I want to. 

 

Everyone has a different approach to training, none are wrong, just simply what fits for each trainer.   I don't steady a dog until at least 10 months to a year old.  I also don't use an e-collar in training. A dogs a wash out to me when I can't train them without a collar.  I use them in hunting simply for safety reasons, there's usually a pretty busy road somewhere near by and I'm not taking any chances. 

 

 

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dauber

To me pressure is when handler wants dog to change his behavior and successful use of pressure is when handler wants dog to change behavior and dog changes it to what handler wants.  

Now that can be with an 8 week old pup going to chew on the power cord and you pressure pup to stop. Pressure is a key in training and dog learning to turn it off quickly and confidently makes for a good team either in trialing or hunting. With 8 week old pups I introduce pressure by getting them to place on a placeboard. I use treats for a reward on the board. The board then becomes a place to turn off pressure in the future. Many things are built off that foundation latter. 

 

As for talent I learned long ago from Hal to have a list of traits. 

Here is what I think makes a Spaniel a Spaniel in order of importance to me. I will add most Spaniel people I show this too disagree. 

 

1. Drive, strength of quest, use of wind, quartering style

2. Nose, bird finding ability

3. courage in the face of heavy cover

4. Ferocious flush,boldness

5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth

6. The dogs acceptance of training

 

Good discussion Hal. Thanks to everyone for playing along. 

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Hal Standish
1 hour ago, sxsneubaum said:

I've had a couple Hal and I'm in the high 20's. 

 

Learning curve? Knowing that I'm a novice I used to ask judges what "I could have done", dumbest thing I could do.  Talk about contradictory information from one judge to another. 

Entering this season what I am going to do is run my dog.  I know he's an exceptional bird finder.  I will run my dog the way I want to. 

 

Everyone has a different approach to training, none are wrong, just simply what fits for each trainer.   I don't steady a dog until at least 10 months to a year old.  I also don't use an e-collar in training. A dogs a wash out to me when I can't train them without a collar.  I use them in hunting simply for safety reasons, there's usually a pretty busy road somewhere near by and I'm not taking any chances. 

 

 

 

 

 

As I look back om my own development I would have to agree. Mr Bramwell's comment of running in 50 trials was fairly accurate. Though i might have said it differently I would have said it might be more like having to develop 5 dogs to run in trial.  If one goes through the process of readying 5 dogs for trial chances are you will have seen all of the personality types and have learn how to motivate those varying personality types to perform to your standards. Now that is quite a process if you stop and think about it. That would mean you would have quite a string of dogs at various levels of growth to determine what type of dog you like? What type of dog would be considered competitive by yourself and your peers? In my case that meant placing dogs in new homes at or below market value based their level training. we could only house 10-12 dogs of our own. And I needed a string of solid hunting dogs for my guiding business. Both wild birds and pheasant club birds So as to make room for a new project dog. Tough decisions for sure. 

 

I'm well versed in e-collar use,having trained many other breeds of sporting dogs for field and marsh. E-collar work has not always been my go to option for a trialing spaniel prospect. 

The spaniel breed, and I only speak of Cockers and Springers have such standards in the process of doing their work are different than the Pointy types and Non-slip retrievers. I cannot say exactly but some 60 years ago the Non-slip folks made a decision to change their breed dynamics of performance that only pups that came from parentage that could withstand the force of a formulated process of development. and there is an actual formula that all retriever trial prospects are put through The e-collar became the tool needed to push the retrieving breeds out past the 150yard line on marks and blinds. The distances that the retriever folks are working at now are  dizzying. A few years back I witnessed at a Retriever trial a triple mark at 300, 450. and 600 yards. though Fascinatingly to watch with a pair of binoculars, it does not fit what we are trying to accomplish with our upland field trials or hunt training for spaniels.

 

One thing I might note, many training groups may be toxic. This true regardless of breed or style of dog. Many groups are way to competitive they try to turn training into a "trial" they should rather be more about the class room and the development of the participants. New folks need to giving developmental help and not be constantly shown up by a few "old timers" and their almost titled or titled dogs.

Best of training for you and your dog

Hal

 

 

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Hal Standish
17 hours ago, Pat Berry said:

 

Yes to all of the above, although I was thinking less about physical correction/negative reinforcement pressure and more pushing a dog along through an aggressive training progression. Regardless of method, a trained retrieve at 5-6 months of age could be viewed as a lot of pressure. Regardless of whether an e-collar is used, it take pressure to steady a dog. Requiring a dog to run a pattern that you want instead of a pattern they may naturally be inclined to run is a form of pressure.

 

It is expected that professional trainers will make progress and meet certain benchmarks. Depending on the dog, meeting those benchmarks-- regardless of how refined the method might seem-- can put in incredible amount of pressure on a young dog. It is simply not realistic to think that every pup will be obedience/collar conditioned by 5 months, force-fetched at 6 months, started on birds at 7 months, steadied at 8 months, and put through a bucket or other quartering program at 9-10 months. And yet that is sometimes the expectation of successful professional trainers. So what I might view as pressure: giving the pup a gruff voice for screwing around with a retrieve at 8 months... Is certainly a different level and degree of pressure comparatively.

 

And so it goes that amateurs will certainly question if they are really getting the most of their dog, also by comparison. Just what should I expect of my 9 month old pup right now? Everyone will have a different answer, and I will just hope I don't screw it up.

 

That is all good. A 5-6 month old prospect is much easier to work with than a case hardened teenager or adult. Dogs develop likes and dislikes when we are not even watching them. The Trained  Retrieve is a whole simpler to install once the adult teeth have come than waiting for the pup to learn how to use them in defiance of our goals for our pup. Avoidance to our wishes are much less, at these nubile ages than later on. Going through the trained retrieve is a great transition for the next step of training that being steadying to W&S. when both these areas are addressed early in the pups life their reaction is any thing but having been pressurized.

I recall many years ago with a fine lil springer named Holly she was about 6 months of age, her FF took about 3 sessions. at the same time i had an 18 month old retriever come in. This dog had nothing going on except random energy, later which we develop into excellent controllable drive. His FF sessions took about 6 weeks and was nothing but an arm wrestling fight for the first month. I would never wish that experience on anyone After which he succumbed to the pressure and became a very serviceable duck dog. Force became a way of life for this dog.

Holly went on and was close to the top of the high point dog list the next year and help my wife make her 2nd Top lady amateur award her youthful training made that all possible. She was also the best grouse and WC dog I have ever hunted with.

A more recent example would be our Zeta dog. She came to us at 12 weeks To quote Mark Haglin "no spare time for pups" Her training began and she did not even know she was being trained. In her brief career she ran in 34 trials finished 28 and won 7 placed in 11. she is now approaching 6 yrs(July) and is sleeping close by on her bean bag. No e-collar very little force, and I owe this to starting her early in life. 

There are many ways to train but in realty we only a few windows of opportunity to impress upon our pup that our ways are the best ways.

Best of training in the New Year.

Hal

 

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Hal Standish
1 hour ago, dauber said:

To me pressure is when handler wants dog to change his behavior and successful use of pressure is when handler wants dog to change behavior and dog changes it to what handler wants.  

Now that can be with an 8 week old pup going to chew on the power cord and you pressure pup to stop. Pressure is a key in training and dog learning to turn it off quickly and confidently makes for a good team either in trialing or hunting. With 8 week old pups I introduce pressure by getting them to place on a placeboard. I use treats for a reward on the board. The board then becomes a place to turn off pressure in the future. Many things are built off that foundation latter. 

 

As for talent I learned long ago from Hal to have a list of traits. 

Here is what I think makes a Spaniel a Spaniel in order of importance to me. I will add most Spaniel people I show this too disagree. 

 

1. Drive, strength of quest, use of wind, quartering style

2. Nose, bird finding ability

3. courage in the face of heavy cover

4. Ferocious flush,boldness

5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth

6. The dogs acceptance of training

 

Good discussion Hal. Thanks to everyone for playing along. 

 

Steve we are separated by some 8 hours of windshield time, yet watching your thoughtful development of your guys it is like we live next door . You "bought into place board training"

so well you could sell it now for big money!

 

Am I reading this correctly ( I will add most Spaniel people I show this too disagree) Are you saying folks do not believe this about spaniels?)

 

Well I hope they are not on any trial judges panel. I did not invent that list. The only credit I can take is that of sharing it with those that I thought it could help. Those six traits come from Green book or maybe Blue  Book that is the guide for judging spaniels, Springers or Cockers in trial.

Keep up the great work yous and Karen are doing, your breed FBEC needs folks like you folks, some thing fierce. It is folks like yous guys that make the game what it is.

Best of training in the New Year

Hal

 

I might add when I was first introduced to Place board training back in the 1990's it dramatically trained my approach to training all breeds of dogs

I did not conceive that information it has been around a lot longer than i have 

 

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dauber

It is mostly the order of the traits they disagree with. Most want trainabilty at the top.  It baffles me, if the dog doesn’t have the first 5 it don’t matter how trainable it is. 

 

Thanks Hal, you have been a big influence on us over the many years we’ve known each other!

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Pat Berry
59 minutes ago, dauber said:

It is mostly the order of the traits they disagree with. Most want trainabilty at the top.  It baffles me, if the dog doesn’t have the first 5 it don’t matter how trainable it is.

 

Then consider yourself baffled, my friend. I do disagree with the order. As you correctly predicted, I would prefer to have trainability at the top. The reasons are twofold.

 

First, as I previously mentioned, I require a dog to be a good citizen above all else. It's what keeps my family excited about having a house full of dogs, and what keeps my wife tolerating my obsessive hobbies. 

 

Second, when choosing a dog from a good breeding and a proven sire and dam, I assume the required natural abilities will be present to a greater (not lesser) degree. If I can hedge my chances toward an intelligent, biddable temperament, I will take that every time. In short, I would rather have a weekend trial winner who is a pleasure to train and have around the house than a national caliber champ who is a pain in the ass.

 

I chose my newest pup because of temperament of the parents. I hope the rest works out.

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jackiep
8 hours ago, Hal Standish said:

The Trained  Retrieve is a whole simpler to install once the adult teeth have come than waiting for the pup to learn how to use them in defiance of our goals for our pup. Avoidance to our wishes are much less, at these nubile ages than later on. Going through the trained retrieve is a great transition for the next step of training that being steadying to W&S. when both these areas are addressed early in the pups life their reaction is any thing but having been pressurized.

Very interesting thoughts on this.  In my head I thought I would wait to do a trained retrieve until my pup was closer to two years old the way I did for my older dog but what you are saying here seems to make a lot of sense to me.

Can I ask what your trained retrieve looks like?  Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly.

Oh and great topic .... really enjoying the read.

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dauber
5 hours ago, Pat Berry said:

 

Then consider yourself baffled, my friend. I do disagree with the order. As you correctly predicted, I would prefer to have trainability at the top. The reasons are twofold.

 

First, as I previously mentioned, I require a dog to be a good citizen above all else. It's what keeps my family excited about having a house full of dogs, and what keeps my wife tolerating my obsessive hobbies. 

 

Second, when choosing a dog from a good breeding and a proven sire and dam, I assume the required natural abilities will be present to a greater (not lesser) degree. If I can hedge my chances toward an intelligent, biddable temperament, I will take that every time. In short, I would rather have a weekend trial winner who is a pleasure to train and have around the house than a national caliber champ who is a pain in the ass.

 

I chose my newest pup because of temperament of the parents. I hope the rest works out.

 

Baffled might have been the incorrect word Pat. I’ve come to expect it.  I’m disappointed that this trend is happening, but it is not surprising since people are hunting less and less and as you say a good citizen in the house is more important.  That is fine and your list is different.  

I hunt 60 days a year and spent another 60 in the woods and plains. Mediocre dogwork doesn’t inspire me. I do trial some but really have no allusion of winning a national. I love to see a dog that wants to “hunt” more than anything.  I’ve yet to have one that couldn’t live in the house with us even a couple Cockers that were always kennel dogs for 3 years.  

I am disappointed to hear more and more interested in trainability over hunting, bird finding, and retrieving.  But there is getting to be less and less people like me so supply will meet demand. 

I’m glad you are able to meet your needs Pat. 

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Hal Standish


"what makes a spaniel a spaniel"

1. Drive, strength of quest, use of wind, quartering style
2. Nose, bird finding ability
3. courage in the face of heavy cover
4. Strength of flush,boldness
5. Retrieve, marking ability and mouth
6. The dogs acceptance of training

 

 

 

Baffled or not! these attributes are NOT placed in any order of importance! You may however in your own opinion set an order of importance. That will not affect the spaniel breed one iota.

Now if I were running under judgement in trial i would want to enter under judges that placed equal value on those 1st five in the list.  As for number 6 the judging panel would have know idea if me dog was easy or difficult to train. I would never consider running under a training partner.

 

 

 

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