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mccuha

Dog bumping birds

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mccuha

I have a very nice setter.  2 1/2 yrs old. Last season was her first yr. by the end of the season she was finding and holding covies solid. I figured this would be her breakout yr. she is awesome in finding birds. Covies and singles but for whatever reason she is now consistently bumping birds. She does not chase but will just stand there when they get up.  I have been trying to work her on some release birds. Let her find them then watch her from a distance and make her stand as long as she will. Then when she starts to wag her tail a little I then whoa her, style her then begin to kick around her for a minute or two then flush bird and not shoot. I make her stay on point after the flush for a minute then go and locate bird and repeat process except I shoot the bird.  She found a wild covey here in sc a couple days ago and bumped them. She was still standing and I got there as quick as possible and punished her and told her whoa. Made her stand there a min     I know that sometimes dogs come up on a covey or bird wrong and don’t smell them until it’s to late. That could have happened the other day.  What do you pros think I should do

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mccuha

I will say as well. She does a super job on release birds. Doesn’t get close.  I know these are not wild birds and don’t run where wild birds do.   Also the other day we finally found some woodcock and was solid as a rock on them.  She had never found woodcock before

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406dn

Did you see her knock the birds for a fact? If so, discipline her, set her back, and make her stand, yada, yada. But if you assume she knocked them, she could have had a stop to flush, which would be a nice piece of bird work. If I don't know, I don't discipline.

 

If you think she is standing her birds for a time and then taking them out, I would not make her stand for extended periods on planted birds. After she goes on point, I would approach her , whoa her softly and flush the bird. Over a period of time you can extend how long she has to hold point but you want to create an expectation for her that she finds and points, you show up and flush.

 

 

 

 

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mccuha

She seems to always be out of sight when she bumps birds.  I first thought it was poor scenting conditions because in tx where I mostly hunt it’s very very dry and low humidity.  The last day out there a friend hunting with me saw here go into them. She was pointing then I saw her relocate. She was where I couldn’t see next thing I know the birds were up. Also during the week she would be hunting out of sight  next thing I know birds are in air and I yell whoa.  Go to her and she is standing where they got up.  Also last day out there she was in my sight.  Birds were running and she got birdy didn’t point and went into them.  I instantly yelled whoa and got to her and displined her   A few minutes later she ran up singles. Acted birdy and ran them up. I yelled whoa and displined her.  The other day at home she ran a covey up. Didn’t see what she did just saw birds get up and went to her and displined. She does not chase when she bumps.  Like I said. Last season I had no problems at the end of season with her. I’m just wondering if for some reason this season if she’s having brain farts. I do believe some of the birds she bumped she didn’t smell them real good

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Craig Doherty

Based on the information you presented I would suspect that flushing the wild quail is in the dog's mind way more fun than whatever discipline she is getting is bad.  Sounds like a perfect situation for the use of a bellyband on the dog.  For detailed instructions on how to use one get a copy of the current issue of Pointing Dog Journal  -- the article is too long to put here and would probably infringe on PDJ's copyrights.

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mccuha
2 hours ago, Craig Doherty said:

Based on the information you presented I would suspect that flushing the wild quail is in the dog's mind way more fun than whatever discipline she is getting is bad.  Sounds like a perfect situation for the use of a bellyband on the dog.  For detailed instructions on how to use one get a copy of the current issue of Pointing Dog Journal  -- the article is too long to put here and would probably infringe on PDJ's copyrights.

That is exactly where I have the collar and use it.  I was shown this a long time ago.  I run a collar on her all the time and last year I had it around her neck but for some unknown reason this year when I put the collar around her neck she  seemed to want to breathe out of her mouth instead of her nose and eventually wear herself out trying to breathe acted like it was choking her but it was barely tight enough to make contact. So I just put it around her stomach now.  I have the stimulus at a setting as described. She is solid and steady on flush   And only will get close enough to flush a wild bird.  Want get that close to a release bird. 

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forestdump

Doesn’t sound like she’s intentionally rousing birds up. Seems like she doesn’t know how close she can get to wild birds. She’s knocking them but standing when they flush which is good dog work. More wild birds should teach her. 

 

Disclaimer* not a pro

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Craig Doherty
34 minutes ago, forestdump said:

Doesn’t sound like she’s intentionally rousing birds up. Seems like she doesn’t know how close she can get to wild birds. She’s knocking them but standing when they flush which is good dog work. More wild birds should teach her. 

 

Disclaimer* not a pro

I think most guys err on the side of caution in these situations which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  The reason I said I thought she was doing it intentionally was because the OP said:

 

17 hours ago, mccuha said:

Last season was her first yr. by the end of the season she was finding and holding covies solid.

 

So, now at 2 1/2 she's making a choice to flush on her own.  She also probably thinks that stopping to flush is going to limit the amount of correction she gets.  

 

To the OP I would suggest two things:  make sure the collar is snug -- most dogs learn to puff out their stomachs when you put the collar on and try and keep her in sight so you can stop her sooner.  You may also have to increase the stimulation.  I guess that's actually three things!

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blanked

i think one of two things.  Coveys are jumping wild which is normal for me and desert quail.  The idea is to hunt the singles which hold better.   Or the coveys are running out in front of the dog making the dog charge the running birds

 

hunting better cover is the easiest answer

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mccuha
36 minutes ago, Craig Doherty said:

I think most guys err on the side of caution in these situations which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  The reason I said I thought she was doing it intentionally was because the OP said:

 

 

So, now at 2 1/2 she's making a choice to flush on her own.  She also probably thinks that stopping to flush is going to limit the amount of correction she gets.  

 

To the OP I would suggest two things:  make sure the collar is snug -- most dogs learn to puff out their stomachs when you put the collar on and try and keep her in sight so you can stop her sooner.  You may also have to increase the stimulation.  I guess that's actually three things!

I am going to start trying to keep her more in sight so when she does get birdy and continues on in I can correct her. I’ll make sure the collar is tight. I usually have it pretty snug. I as well will increase intensity.  Had been trying to keep her in sight since she started doing this. Thought about having her have a 25-30ft leash to slow her down some. She is a very fast dog and will be at 200yds before you know it. 

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mccuha
5 minutes ago, blanked said:

i think one of two things.  Coveys are jumping wild which is normal for me and desert quail.  The idea is to hunt the singles which hold better.   Or the coveys are running out in front of the dog making the dog charge the running birds

Last season the birds didn’t run as much as this year. And I did hunt her on desert quail.  As well.  The desert quail. We would flush them then get dogs on singles. I thought that possible a combination of things may be messing her up. Poor scenting conditions,running birds.   She would point then relocate sometimes a couple time before I could get to her.  Then she would eventually get to close and bump them 

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mccuha

I know woodcock are a different bird but the one she has found and pointed she worked it fine.  But granted I wasn’t far from her as well. I’m thinking that when she’s out of my sight she thinks she can do as she pleases

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406dn
23 minutes ago, mccuha said:

I know woodcock are a different bird but the one she has found and pointed she worked it fine.  But granted I wasn’t far from her as well. I’m thinking that when she’s out of my sight she thinks she can do as she pleases

That is because she can do as she pleases when you and her are out of sight from each other. One of the truest signs of an honest dog, is when you start finding them on point with regularity. Because if they had wanted, they could have ripped out the birds.

 

That your dog doesn't chase the birds, tells me she is not a total renegade. There are quite a few things about your situation that are unsaid, that make it difficult to suggest a course of action. I am assuming she is well broke on her yard manners. If not, get that done before you start trying to use it in the field. I have come around to using the collar sparingly around birds. That's just my preference, not a knock on e-collars per se. When I see a dog that knows better, take out birds, first I whoa them to stop any more movement, then I get to them as quickly as I can. Then I pretty sternly grab them by the collar, lift them off the ground and take them back to where they should have stayed. When we get there, my demeanor switches 180 and I let them know we're ok again. Also you should be offering some praise whenever she does it all correctly. 

 

When I 'm trying to get a dog broke, I offer them some praise as soon as I get to them to flush. That way if things go south from there, they still know where it was still good. When they do it right, I let them know what a good dog they are.

 

Training is both carrots and sticks. You can't get training completed with just one. Nearly every dog wants to be on your good side, let them know when they are, or aren't.

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mccuha

I do praise her when she does good.  She is whoa broke. You can whoa her any time and will stop on a dime.  When I was out in dec in tx and she would get birdy. I began to whoa her. This was after we saw her bump birds   I like her distance that she hunts and don’t want her to stop getting out there.  But I know no other way than to have her work close enough that I can see her in action. 

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Hal Standish
21 hours ago, mccuha said:

I have a very nice setter.  2 1/2 yrs old. Last season was her first yr. by the end of the season she was finding and holding covies solid. I figured this would be her breakout yr. she is awesome in finding birds. Covies and singles but for whatever reason she is now consistently bumping birds. She does not chase but will just stand there when they get up.  I have been trying to work her on some release birds. Let her find them then watch her from a distance and make her stand as long as she will. Then when she starts to wag her tail a little I then whoa her, style her then begin to kick around her for a minute or two then flush bird and not shoot. I make her stay on point after the flush for a minute then go and locate bird and repeat process except I shoot the bird.  She found a wild covey here in sc a couple days ago and bumped them. She was still standing and I got there as quick as possible and punished her and told her whoa. Made her stand there a min     I know that sometimes dogs come up on a covey or bird wrong and don’t smell them until it’s to late. That could have happened the other day.  What do you pros think I should do

 

 

Just trying to understand. When she "bumps" birds what direction is the wind, is she upwind the birds, down wind or in a cross wind of the birds?? Wind direction and intensity can be challenging for some dogs to figure out. Cold dry conditions may also be affecting scenting conditions. Nose can also be affected by hormonal changes as well. When training I often use a cross bird to test nose, it forces the dog to turn left or right of the line its on, depending on where the wind is blowing from. The intensity of that turn will tell me lot about just what we have nose.

 Now if it is a situation that she is throwing her head, indicating the presence of game and charging just to bust birds now you have a training situation around the point of contact

With dogs that have an issue around bird contact I have usually Steady to wing and shot. Over the years that process helps dogs to forget about flushing when they should be holding point.

 

If she has any range at all "you cannot get to them quick enough to "punish her". electricity is the only thing that can get to them quick enough. Corrections have to be instantaneous. Also usually means not carrying a gun.

Best of luck

Happy 2018

Hal

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