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mccuha

Dog bumping birds

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Flairball
3 hours ago, mccuha said:

She is whoa broke. You can whoa her any time and will stop on a dime.  When I was out in dec in tx and she would get birdy. I began to whoa her. This was after we saw her bump birds   

 

This could be part of the problem. She starts having some issues holding birds, which disappoints you. Then, you start whoaing her when she’s birds, which leads to you flushing and shooting birds, and being happy again- success. Now, it’s possible the key to success, in her mind is to run, looking for birds until you whoa her. When you can’t see her she runs through birds, but stops when you whoa her, which is what you want. Sounds like she thinks you want her to whoa, no matter what, not point. 

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mccuha

I feel like some of her bumps is she doesn’t know how close she can get. As well as has been mentioned poor scenting conditions and wrong wind. Today went woodcock hunting and birds were wild.  She never smelled any of the birds she bumped.  A couple got up a good 20yrds ahead of her.  She actually stepped on a couple.  She never acted like she smelled any birds she bumped but when they were bumped she stood there pointed and would not move until released     One positive thing about today.  She did a great job backing and did it on her own. I made sure to praise her for everything she did right.  I never shoot a bird not pointed especially over her   If I were to do that I would regress in her training. I actually had my friend do all the shooting today so I could just work with her

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uplandave

I have a question. Would training with launchers help in that you are in a more controlled environment and able to

 correct her. I am no trainer but figure that might help establish a little more distance if you were to pop the bird 

if she didn’t whoa the instance she made scent. Good luck, Dave

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mccuha

I don’t have a launcher yet but will this week.  I have some pretty good quail that are pretty skittish. I put out a bird or 2 and let her loose then hide where she can’t see me. Then just watch and wait.  So far on the released birds she doesn’t crowd or bump them.  And will stand for a couple minutes until she begins to loose interest. But yes a launcher will help a lot.  

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forestdump

The problem is she’s getting to close. A take out artist is generally putting dogs out and chasing them. You could have a dog that’s putting birds up just to watch them fly but I don’t think that’s the case. It’s rare and if that’s what you have then just get rid of the dog. 

 

The issue here is you cant just woah a dog when it’s getting birdy or when it flash points. The dog has to learn how to handle the birds and when to point and when not to point otherwise it’s generally useless. If you try woahing into points when you think she should be pointing then you’re going to have a junk dog. Wild birds are wild and they do whatever they want. Keep putting her into birds and let her learn. 

 

I know you said shes great on released birds. Work her on planted quail and pigeons. You need a more controlled scenario to see exactly what she’s doing. But if she isn’t intentionally flushing releases birds that tells me that she just hasn’t gotten wild birds down yet and they’re obviously a lot spookier than released birds. 

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mccuha

I have been thinking and I guess hoping that she just doesn’t know how close to get. She on wild birds when working a covey relocates a  little bit and I think she just doesn’t realize how close she’s getting.  On singles she either smells and pegs them or doesn’t seem to smell them and walks into them.  Either way she stops to flush

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406dn
3 minutes ago, mccuha said:

I have been thinking and I guess hoping that she just doesn’t know how close to get. She on wild birds when working a covey relocates a  little bit and I think she just doesn’t realize how close she’s getting.  On singles she either smells and pegs them or doesn’t seem to smell them and walks into them.  Either way she stops to flush

 

 

If she is working a bird,  catching some scent, and the bird flushes, that is by definition a bump. When you witness this, you need to correct her. If you don't, how is she to know that that isn't what you want. What you are describing is a stop to bump. 

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Jere

At least once you said to the effect: birds flushed, I whoa's her, went to her, discplined her, etc.  Why would you discipline her when she is standing after you whoa'd her?  You haven't been consistent in your descriptions - maybe the situations were not consistent. I think you may be confusing her - badly. 

 

Use advanced search on this site, search for "West system"  See if there is enough there for you to understand the system in detail. 

 

I believe she can be fixed pretty easily but I also think you need a little help too. Unfortunately you have not established the West System foundation or I'd be inclined to tell you what to do to get her on track so I won't.  (On second thought, since she's whoa broke - someting not done at this stage of development in the West system - do this:  When you see her bump birds, Instantly as birds rise into the air use "whoa."  I assume from what you have said she will stop and stand. Go to her, release her to hunt more and continue on.) You're in South Carolina?  Mo Lindley is in Piedmont just south of Greenville.  I'm sure he'd give some pointers on how to fix her if you visited and got him to watch her. His website: http://lindleykennel.com/ You can find contact info there.   You might also benefit from reading at this site:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/steadywithstyle/

 

Good luck, sounds like you have a nice prospect there.

Jere

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mccuha
19 hours ago, Jere said:

At least once you said to the effect: birds flushed, I whoa's her, went to her, discplined her, etc.  Why would you discipline her when she is standing after you whoa'd her?  You haven't been consistent in your descriptions - maybe the situations were not consistent. I think you may be confusing her - badly. 

 

Use advanced search on this site, search for "West system"  See if there is enough there for you to understand the system in detail. 

 

I believe she can be fixed pretty easily but I also think you need a little help too. Unfortunately you have not established the West System foundation or I'd be inclined to tell you what to do to get her on track so I won't.  (On second thought, since she's whoa broke - someting not done at this stage of development in the West system - do this:  When you see her bump birds, Instantly as birds rise into the air use "whoa."  I assume from what you have said she will stop and stand. Go to her, release her to hunt more and continue on.) You're in South Carolina?  Mo Lindley is in Piedmont just south of Greenville.  I'm sure he'd give some pointers on how to fix her if you visited and got him to watch her. His website: http://lindleykennel.com/ You can find contact info there.   You might also benefit from reading at this site:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/steadywithstyle/

 

Good luck, sounds like you have a nice prospect there.

Jere

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mccuha
Just now, mccuha said:
19 hours ago, Jere said:

At least once you said to the effect: birds flushed, I whoa's her, went to her, discplined her, etc.  Why would you discipline her when she is standing after you whoa'd her?  You haven't been consistent in your descriptions - maybe the situations were not consistent. I think you may be confusing her - badly. 

 

Use advanced search on this site, search for "West system"  See if there is enough there for you to understand the system in detail. 

 

I believe she can be fixed pretty easily but I also think you need a little help too. Unfortunately you have not established the West System foundation or I'd be inclined to tell you what to do to get her on track so I won't.  (On second thought, since she's whoa broke - someting not done at this stage of development in the West system - do this:  When you see her bump birds, Instantly as birds rise into the air use "whoa."  I assume from what you have said she will stop and stand. Go to her, release her to hunt more and continue on.) You're in South Carolina?  Mo Lindley is in Piedmont just south of Greenville.  I'm sure he'd give some pointers on how to fix her if you visited and got him to watch her. His website: http://lindleykennel.com/ You can find contact info there.   You might also benefit from reading at this site:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/steadywithstyle/

 

Good luck, sounds like you have a nice prospect there.

Jere

I have seen her quite a bit when she bumps a bird stop and stand until released. She does not chase at all.  When she bumps them I will stimulate her  I as well will go to her and discipline her. And make her stand as I kick around a little then will release.  She is doing better lately.  Pointed a few woodcock this week.  If she is not where I want her I am going to take her to Mo.  he’s less than an hr from me. Matter a fact I have a coworker that has had Mo train his dogs and my hunting partner has a 5mo old pup from him that is really doing a good job at a young age. 

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Jere
6 hours ago, mccuha said:

I have seen her quite a bit when she bumps a bird stop and stand until released. She does not chase at all.  When she bumps them I will stimulate her  I as well will go to her and discipline her. And make her stand as I kick around a little then will release.  She is doing better lately.  Pointed a few woodcock this week.  If she is not where I want her I am going to take her to Mo.  he’s less than an hr from me. Matter a fact I have a coworker that has had Mo train his dogs and my hunting partner has a 5mo old pup from him that is really doing a good job at a young age. 

When she bumps them the stim should happen instantaneously - as best u can - as the birds lift off.  Make the level the lowest you have determined she reacts to - in the sense that she acknowledges it by some slight body language indication i slight twitch of the head, or an ear etc.  It should result in her standing, but I get the impression she would do that without stim?  As long as she stands there is no need for further "discipline" (the nature of which you have not specified) when you go to and get to her.  In fact acknowledging she's doing right by standing still IS in order (but probably not lavishly.)  Let her stand for a short period, then release her to go on and hunt.  (I've been there, done that, myself)  I believe you will see more rapid progress this way.  Mo is worth visiting and getting to know in any case.

 

Jere

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Jere

I should probably elaborate as I've opened the Pandora's Box of stim on birds!

 

1. When birds flush in presence of dog:

     a.  I want to feel certain dog was, in fact, "working" the bird(s) (knew bird(s) were somewhere around the immediate area) and (probably)

            should have pointed (it had actually located bird(s) by scent , sight or sound).  Then:

              i.  even though dog stops and stands, I'll use instant, low level stim as bird(s) get up, but

              ii. If dog does not stop and stand, then I'd use stim at level sufficient to stop dog (there are some nuances to the way this stim may be

                   applied which are  beyond this level of discussion.), or:

      b.  If i am not certain dog should have pointed (maybe the wind was wrong so dog probably could not have detected scent of bird, the dog

            hadn't displayed any of the body language indicative of awareness of bird(s) nearby, etc.), I assume the dog was not aware a bird was

            around, it was a wild flush - an escape attempt initiated by the bird in response to the dog getting too close, then:

               i. If dog stops and stands, I go to the dog, small praise and release (no stim).  The dog did exactly what I want, it gets a pass.  or:

               ii.  if dog chases go to a. ii. above.

I am usually more likely to "give the dog a pass" than I am to use the ec on birds.

 

Jere

          

 

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mccuha

Just got back from hunting woodcock. She found several but bumped each.  Now.  I tried my best to keep her sight and none of the birds she bumped she never showed sign of smelling it.  When she bumped the bird I did exactly as you were saying.  I would say whoa and stimulate at the same time as quick as I could when the bird was put in air. It almost appears as though she jus doesn’t smell them.  I don’t know if the woodcock just doesn’t put out enough for her to smell them.  On released birds she locks down immediately when she smells them.  

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JJT

To me what you just described I would call a bump. Bird is bumped into without scenting.  If your dog has been trained stop to flush them I would stop the dog go easy on the e collar though you don’t want bad associations.

 

i call it a knock when the bird has been scented and pointed even if it is a flash point. Then once the bird is in the air stop the dog e collar or whoa. You could set it back but you should actually lightly praise it for stopping if that’s what you asked it to do.

 

I am also in the west method, let the bird teach the dog. As long as you have a fair way of reinforcing things that the dog understands that’s what you should do IMHO:) 

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Jere
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, mccuha said:

Just got back from hunting woodcock. She found several but bumped each.  Now.  I tried my best to keep her sight and none of the birds she bumped she never showed sign of smelling it.  When she bumped the bird I did exactly as you were saying.  I would say whoa and stimulate at the same time as quick as I could when the bird was put in air.

 

Sounds like "wild flush" to me. If she stopped and stood when the birds flushed & you "whoaed" + stimed, she did what she should have done.  You should be making positive progress doing as you said.

 

That she isn't catching the scent of these birds is problematic.  Perhaps it has to do with conditions, her position relative to the bird on ground, wind direction, temperature/humidity etc??? I can't help you with woodcock in particular - never hunted them with a dog.  But, have you killed any woodcock over her at all?  If so, how does she react to the dead birds??  Maybe she doesn't associate  the woodcock smell with prey???  Even wild canids (wolves etc.) have to be taught (by their mothers) what is prey and what is not prrey.  So too, with our bird dogs but we replace the mother, usually.

 

I take it she also reacts "properly" to the scent of wild quail?

 

Jere

 

It almost appears as though she jus doesn’t smell them.  I don’t know if the woodcock just doesn’t put out enough for her to smell them.  On released birds she locks down immediately when she smells them.  

 

Edited by Jere

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