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      TO THOSE REGISTERING FOR MEMBERSHIP ON UJ   01/06/2018

      To the Guests who have decided to register for Membership. PLEASE read Terms of Service, not just checking it off. This is covered there: Add more info than just "hunting" or "Upland hunting" or "birds" or "outdoors" or similar nebulous terms in the required INTERESTS field. Despite this Boards strong spam filtering function, some Spam registrations do sneak through. I need an inkling that you are a human being not a Spam Bot tagging onto key words. Also please do not use a business name as your User Name. Thank you.
ThreeDogs

B&P extra rossa HV 28 gauge??

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NatchezSS is running free shipping over $49.99 for the next few days. Code FS180108

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Samuel Hoggson
On 1/6/2018 at 12:27 PM, Speedgoat44 said:

15/16 oz at 1300 sounds like a pretty stout 20 gauge load!  I like the sounds of a 3/4 oz load of 7s for most things out of a 28.  Doesn't that fit the parameters of the 'square load' theory upon which the 28's hard-hitting reputation was built?  

 

I've patterned and hunted w/the HS B&Ps.  No disrespect toward theory, but I'll judge for myself whether an increase in shot column is useful.  At the time owned a Miroku Daly 28.  Alas, the thing had .000/.000 constrictions.  No matter what 3/4 oz load went down the pipes, patterns did not look good even one pace past 20 yds.  Frankly, the thing was marginally reliable with #9 skeet loads on stations 3, 4, 5.  I mean, chips and an occasional kinda decent break.  Not confidence-inspiring.  Anyway, the B&Ps got me to an honest 25 yds.  At least through early season, I wasn't unarmed carrying that gun.  In the end, the gun went to Poulins.  Hope someone is happy with it.

 

Will probably shoot the ammo up in a 12 ga event through the sub-tubes.     

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Curt
6 minutes ago, Samuel Hoggson said:

 

I've patterned and hunted w/the HS B&Ps.  No disrespect toward theory, but I'll judge for myself whether an increase in shot column is useful.  At the time owned a Miroku Daly 28.  Alas, the thing had .000/.000 constrictions.  No matter what 3/4 oz load went down the pipes, patterns did not look good even one pace past 20 yds.  Frankly, the thing was marginally reliable with #9 skeet loads on stations 3, 4, 5.  I mean, chips and an occasional kinda decent break.  Not confidence-inspiring.  Anyway, the B&Ps got me to an honest 25 yds.  At least through early season, I wasn't unarmed carrying that gun.  In the end, the gun went to Poulins.  Hope someone is happy with it.

 

Will probably shoot the ammo up in a 12 ga event through the sub-tubes.     

 

Personally I've never been satisfied with cylinder choke in 28 ga. or 20 ga. guns, they seem to do best with at least a few thousandths of constriction.  That's been my experience.

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Samuel Hoggson
8 minutes ago, Curt said:

 

Personally I've never been satisfied with cylinder choke in 28 ga. or 20 ga. guns, they seem to do best with at least a few thousandths of constriction.  That's been my experience.

 

Curt,  That's my experience as well.  Worse yet are cyl .410s.  Somewhere out there is a decent prewar "cyl" 42 field grade........safe-queen........if I get my hands on it.   

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dogrunner
19 minutes ago, Curt said:

 

Personally I've never been satisfied with cylinder choke in 28 ga. or 20 ga. guns, they seem to do best with at least a few thousandths of constriction.  That's been my experience.

Smaller gauges need more choke to account for less pellets. 

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NVChukarChaser
7 hours ago, Greg Hartman said:

So, to follow the logic of this theory, a wad with thicker walls and no slits (so it stays in the form of a cup after leaving the gun) would provide the tightest patterns, everything else being equal?

 

If so, why are nearly all factory wads split into four petals?

 

This isn't meant as a challenge to anyone's position - it's a real question.

A thicker walled wad will protect the shot better and therefore you get less deformation and a better pattern. A wad with no slits would make a slug . Four petal wads are way easier to load. The cushion section means you have more foregiveness on stack height. There is also the theory that a wad with only two slits is susceptible to cross wind. There is also my personal theory that thicker wads are also like adding a little choke. Turkey wads are only two slits.

 

When I slit my own wads I do a four petal but not all the way down. 

 

Praire storm has a non slit wad but has wings that stop it so the shot comes out and is also a crazy thick wad. 

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Speedgoat44
56 minutes ago, Samuel Hoggson said:

Great point - patterning + field results = informed perspectives.  Just seems like loads like that stretch the 28 into a second-rate 20.  Petty trifles though...this is America and we mostly get to shoot through our guns whatever we want.  :)  If it works for you, use the hell out of it!

56 minutes ago, Samuel Hoggson said:

I've patterned and hunted w/the HS B&Ps.  No disrespect toward theory, but I'll judge for myself whether an increase in shot column is useful.  At the time owned a Miroku Daly 28.  Alas, the thing had .000/.000 constrictions.  No matter what 3/4 oz load went down the pipes, patterns did not look good even one pace past 20 yds.  Frankly, the thing was marginally reliable with #9 skeet loads on stations 3, 4, 5.  I mean, chips and an occasional kinda decent break.  Not confidence-inspiring.  Anyway, the B&Ps got me to an honest 25 yds.  At least through early season, I wasn't unarmed carrying that gun.  In the end, the gun went to Poulins.  Hope someone is happy with it.

 

Will probably shoot the ammo up in a 12 ga event through the sub-tubes.     

 

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ThreeDogs
29 minutes ago, dogrunner said:

Smaller gauges need more choke to account for less pellets. 

 

I agree completely cyl choke is a no go on .410 and 28 gauge. A little constriction goes a long way in the sub bores.

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Greg Hartman
2 hours ago, NVChukarChaser said:

A thicker walled wad will protect the shot better and therefore you get less deformation and a better pattern. A wad with no slits would make a slug . Four petal wads are way easier to load. The cushion section means you have more foregiveness on stack height. There is also the theory that a wad with only two slits is susceptible to cross wind. There is also my personal theory that thicker wads are also like adding a little choke. Turkey wads are only two slits.

 

When I slit my own wads I do a four petal but not all the way down. 

 

Praire storm has a non slit wad but has wings that stop it so the shot comes out and is also a crazy thick wad. 

OK - makes sense.  Yes, I would be concerned about creating a dangerous slug by using a wad with no petals - or at the very least a seriously screwed-up pattern.  I always thought the petals were intended to get the wad clear of the pattern quickly without disturbing the pattern.

 

Before reading your theory, I wouldn't have agreed that a thicker wad makes for less deformation, but as I think about it, recovered thin wads always have bumps on them where the shot pushed hard enough against the side of the wad to deform the wad slightly at that point and likely pushed against the unyielding steel of the bbl wall hard enough to render that particular piece of shot out-of-round.  Whereas, if that soft plastic was thicker and provided more cushioning, that might be less likely to happen.  Perhaps reduced deformation with thick wads explains why you feel thicker wads are like a bit more choke? 

 

Prairie Storm is very hard and dense non-tox shot, right?  If so, that's a different ball game where the purpose of a thick wad is more to protect the bbl from scoring by the hard shot than to protect the shot from deformation.

 

We all know that the tightest patterns are no necessarily the best patterns for all purposes.  My smallbore guns give me enough range without needing tricks like extra-thick wads; and if I need more reach than a particular gauge (like the 28) will provide, I can just move to a bigger gauge and heavier shot load, everything else being equal.  That said, this kind of ballistic minutia is still very interesting to me.  Thanks for your response.

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Greg Hartman
2 hours ago, ThreeDogs said:

 

I agree completely cyl choke is a no go on .410 and 28 gauge. A little constriction goes a long way in the sub bores.

 

Yup.  Quality loads make a bigger difference in the smallbore than in the bigger, guns, too.

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charlo slim
19 minutes ago, Greg Hartman said:

OK - makes sense.  Yes, I would be concerned about creating a dangerous slug by using a wad with no petals - or at the very least a seriously screwed-up pattern.  I always thought the petals were intended to get the wad clear of the pattern quickly without disturbing the pattern.

 

Before reading your theory, I wouldn't have agreed that a thicker wad makes for less deformation, but as I think about it, recovered thin wads always have bumps on them where the shot pushed hard enough against the side of the wad to deform the wad slightly at that point and likely pushed against the unyielding steel of the bbl wall hard enough to render that particular piece of shot out-of-round.  Whereas, if that soft plastic was thicker and provided more cushioning, that might be less likely to happen.  Perhaps reduced deformation with thick wads explains why you feel thicker wads are like a bit more choke? 

 

Prairie Storm is very hard and dense non-tox shot, right?  If so, that's a different ball game where the purpose of a thick wad is more to protect the bbl from scoring by the hard shot than to protect the shot from deformation.

 

We all know that the tightest patterns are no necessarily the best patterns for all purposes.  My smallbore guns give me enough range without needing tricks like extra-thick wads; and if I need more reach than a particular gauge (like the 28) will provide, I can just move to a bigger gauge and heavier shot load, everything else being equal.  That said, this kind of ballistic minutia is still very interesting to me.  Thanks for your response.

 

I think that most shot deformation is caused by pellet-to-pellet contact and compression at setback with most any plastic shotcup style wad.  At least that is my recollection from reading about such mini-minutia, some years back, in a seemingly authoritative source.  It also seems to make some sense theoretically in that primary forces at setback would be directed  rearward rather than laterally.  "Scrubbing" type pellet deformation should seemingly be eliminated by the plastic wad unless the pellet pressed completely through the wad, no?

 

I think that "prairie storm" ammunition is available in either steel or lead.  Don't get me started on that subject!>:(

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NVChukarChaser
2 hours ago, charlo slim said:

 

I think that most shot deformation is caused by pellet-to-pellet contact and compression at setback with most any plastic shotcup style wad.  At least that is my recollection from reading about such mini-minutia, some years back, in a seemingly authoritative source.  It also seems to make some sense theoretically in that primary forces at setback would be directed  rearward rather than laterally.  "Scrubbing" type pellet deformation should seemingly be eliminated by the plastic wad unless the pellet pressed completely through the wad, no?

 

I think that "prairie storm" ammunition is available in either steel or lead.  Don't get me started on that subject!>:(

The bottom of the wad does take most of the heat but the sides take their fair share of punishment and in a sub gauge every pellet matters. 

 

 This is from a fairly mild 1200 FPS 1 ounce 20 ga load. This is also a fairly stout wads. Rem SP20. 

8D80DEA9-A28B-4113-AA38-61AE9556C6F2.jpeg

719B19AA-F921-417B-BF13-AA4AE357C552.jpeg

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Greg Hartman

Yes, I agree that most shot deformation results from set-back forces.  Of course, that's why all modern wads (with room to do this) have a cushioning section.  I've often wondered how effective those collapsible cushioning sections really are, but I've never seen an apples-to-apples comparison of patterns thrown by wads with and without such cushioning sections.  The only other things that I know about which help alleviate set-back deformation are: shorter shot column; harder shot; and buffering.  I know that hard shot and buffering make a considerable difference in my long, skinny 3" .410 hunting loads.

 

That said, shot being pushed against the bbl wall by those same set-back forces also gets deformed.  I never thought about this before reading NVCC's post, but it does make sense that a thicker wall of soft plastic would reduce deformation from that cause to some extent, tho' some of that effect might be offset by the longer shot column needed to get the same amount of shot into a much thicker wad cup.

 

I dunno anything about Prairie Storm ammo.

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Kemo Sabe
On 1/6/2018 at 5:09 AM, KerryLuft said:

For several years I shot a 28 almost exclusively. I found the Winchester Super Sports to be superior to the B&P.  YMMV.

 

100% agree. No question that my guns and me like the Winchesters better. 

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Kemo Sabe
On 1/6/2018 at 10:58 AM, KerryLuft said:

 

Try the Fiocchi Golden Pheasants in 28.  Nickle plated, 7/8 oz., 1300 fps.

 

 

 

 Another great shell that I like better than the 28 ga. B&P.

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