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ThreeDogs

B&P extra rossa HV 28 gauge??

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Kemo Sabe

Agree with Greg: tighter chokes and higher quality ammo are needed in the small gauges for where and the way I hunt. A 20 gauge, with M/F chokes is good to 40/45 yards any day of the week with high quality ammo. Or Hevishot in Mod/IM.

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NVChukarChaser
10 hours ago, Greg Hartman said:

Yes, I agree that most shot deformation results from set-back forces.  Of course, that's why all modern wads (with room to do this) have a cushioning section.  I've often wondered how effective those collapsible cushioning sections really are, but I've never seen an apples-to-apples comparison of patterns thrown by wads with and without such cushioning sections.  The only other things that I know about which help alleviate set-back deformation are: shorter shot column; harder shot; and buffering.  I know that hard shot and buffering make a considerable difference in my long, skinny 3" .410 hunting loads.

 

That said, shot being pushed against the bbl wall by those same set-back forces also gets deformed.  I never thought about this before reading NVCC's post, but it does make sense that a thicker wall of soft plastic would reduce deformation from that cause to some extent, tho' some of that effect might be offset by the longer shot column needed to get the same amount of shot into a much thicker wad cup.

 

I dunno anything about Prairie Storm ammo.

A 1/4” felt wad in the bottom of the wad is in my opinion better than a cushion section. I pick up every hull and wad I see and like inspecting wads. My favorite 20ga load uses what is basically a steel wad and a 1/4” felt in the bottom. There is no indentation in the bottom of the wad and it patterns amazing. 

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Usmc
On 1/8/2018 at 1:11 PM, ThreeDogs said:

 

I agree completely cyl choke is a no go on .410 and 28 gauge. A little constriction goes a long way in the sub bores.

 

I use a LM on my BUL 28 ga and IC and M on the Beretta 686..

 

some folks over choke the 28 ga, best results are with IC to M at least in my guns...

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Larry Brown
On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 1:41 PM, dogrunner said:

Smaller gauges need more choke to account for less pellets. 

Looks like we drifted into a discussion of choke and load . . . probably because we're talking about 28ga shells.  Depends on what you're shooting, and how far away.  If you go to smaller pellets, you can also compensate for a more open choke.  I kept C/IC chokes in my Rizzini 28ga until woodcock season was almost over.  Worked fine for me, on grouse as well.  I don't shoot anything larger than 8's in the right barrel, and I've discovered (by the boring task of counting pellets) that 8's in Win's AA target loads are about half way to 8 1/2's--which is fine with me. 

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ThreeDogs
7 hours ago, Larry Brown said:

If you go to smaller pellets, you can also compensate for a more open choke.  I kept C/IC chokes in my Rizzini 28ga until woodcock season was almost over.  Worked fine for me, on grouse as well.  I don't shoot anything larger than 8's in the right barrel, and I've discovered 

 

You don't need hi velocity rounds to kill a grouse or woodcock. But if you want something to kill desert quail or Chukar out of your 28 gauge it better be zipping along pretty quick. They are much tougher to kill.

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Larry Brown

Pretty much agree, 3 Dogs--at least on scalies and Gambel's.  I haven't found Mearns especially hard to kill, but then they usually flush pretty much in your face, so shots are closer.  I haven't shot any wild chukar in over 40 years.  Shot very similar birds (Barbary partridge) in Morocco, and I don't think I would have wanted to use a 28ga, period, on them. 

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Speedgoat44

***Spoiler alert - Total midwinter guncrank rambling post *** I agree that some species are more tenacious of life than others, chukar being the toughest I've personally encountered.  But, Re: Hi-vel loads and killing power:  What does a load at 1300 do that a 1150 load won't, even on tougher birds?   Either a given projectile has the energy to penetrate to reach vitals or it doesn't, right? Those requirements obviously vary based on bird size, shot size/mass, and shot presentation.  How much more does a pellet penetrate when it hits at 900fps vs 850fps?  No clue, but probably very little. Vital hits/blood loss/ CNS hits are what anchor game.  150 fps advantages at the muzzle shrink to much less than that downrange anyway and extra speed would't increase killing power because there is no 'hydrostatic shock' at shotshell velocities.  Pellet density/weight/size  and pattern density matter -  'dead-in-the-air' results are probably more the result of CNS disruption than from the effects of higher terminal velocity.  All of this rambling nonsense just to say, if a given load seems more effective than another,  velocity probably isn't why. 

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salmontogue
6 minutes ago, Speedgoat44 said:

***Spoiler alert - Total midwinter guncrank rambling post *** I agree that some species are more tenacious of life than others, chukar being the toughest I've personally encountered.  But, Re: Hi-vel loads and killing power:  What does a load at 1300 do that a 1150 load won't, even on tougher birds?   Either a given projectile has the energy to penetrate to reach vitals or it doesn't, right? Those requirements obviously vary based on bird size, shot size/mass, and shot presentation.  How much more does a pellet penetrate when it hits at 900fps vs 850fps?  No clue, but probably very little. Vital hits/blood loss/ CNS hits are what anchor game.  150 fps advantages at the muzzle shrink to much less than that downrange anyway and extra speed would't increase killing power because there is no 'hydrostatic shock' at shotshell velocities.  Pellet density/weight/size  and pattern density matter -  'dead-in-the-air' results are probably more the result of CNS disruption than from the effects of higher terminal velocity.  All of this rambling nonsense just to say, if a given load seems more effective than another,  velocity probably isn't why. 

 

Also centering the pattern.  Higher velocities can cause blown and distorted patterns in many guns.

 

Perk

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ThreeDogs
3 hours ago, Speedgoat44 said:

***Spoiler alert - Total midwinter guncrank rambling post *** I agree that some species are more tenacious of life than others, chukar being the toughest I've personally encountered.  But, Re: Hi-vel loads and killing power:  What does a load at 1300 do that a 1150 load won't, even on tougher birds?   Either a given projectile has the energy to penetrate to reach vitals or it doesn't, right? Those requirements obviously vary based on bird size, shot size/mass, and shot presentation.  How much more does a pellet penetrate when it hits at 900fps vs 850fps?  No clue, but probably very little. Vital hits/blood loss/ CNS hits are what anchor game.  150 fps advantages at the muzzle shrink to much less than that downrange anyway and extra speed would't increase killing power because there is no 'hydrostatic shock' at shotshell velocities.  Pellet density/weight/size  and pattern density matter -  'dead-in-the-air' results are probably more the result of CNS disruption than from the effects of higher terminal velocity.  All of this rambling nonsense just to say, if a given load seems more effective than another,  velocity probably isn't why. 

 

I used to think this^^^^^your logic is sound!!! It wasn’t  until my boys and I spent several days in the desert chasing gambles all shooting various 28 gauge guns,  each one of us using a different  load, and different chokes to boot. Half way through the second day after loosing a lot more birds than we should have at my friends advice (despite my protest) all three of us switched to B&P HV 7.5s clipping along at 1330 fps. We didn’t loose another bird.

 

An average velocity shell kills them just as dead but I want them dead when the hit the desert floor (stone dead). It’s what happens in the last 3 seconds of life that is the difference between finding and loosing them. There are 100 different holes or rocks within ten feet of where they hit to climb in/under and once they do they are gone.

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charlo slim
5 minutes ago, ThreeDogs said:

 

I used to think this^^^^^your logic is sound!!! It wasn’t  until my boys and I spent several days in the desert chasing gambles all shooting various 28 gauge guns,  each one of us using a different  load, and different chokes to boot. Half way through the second day after loosing a lot more birds than we should have at my friends advice (despite my protest) all three of us switched to B&P HV 7.5s clipping along at 1330 fps. We didn’t loose another bird

 

3 D --The question that immediately pops into my fuzzy little brain is this... other than the relatively small nominal change in mv,  did any characteristics of the DRT loads versus the flop under the boulder loads differ?  Like payload, wad setup / shot quality/ patterning efficiency, etc?  None of those things would be much of a surprise from the ballistic perspective. The alternative interpretation (that + ~ 50-100 fps mv would produce detectable result) would be pretty astounding really.  Particularly with less than hundreds of replicates with blind testing protocol in place.

 

Of course, it doesn't really matter what caused the result that you observed / perceived.  You found a load that works well for you and your boys.  Best to stick with it.  Glad that you got the boys on to some birds.  

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ThreeDogs
1 hour ago, charlo slim said:

 

3 D --The question that immediately pops into my fuzzy little brain is this... other than the relatively small nominal change in mv,  did any characteristics of the DRT loads versus the flop under the boulder loads differ?  Like payload, wad setup / shot quality/ patterning efficiency, etc?  

 

It’s a great question!!! Let me first say I’m a died in the wool moderate velocity low recoil guy. Dead is dead. I argued with my buddy for a day and a half before I would try his B&P shells he just swore by them...

 

I was shooting the win superx 1 ounce load of 7.5s out of my Aya choked ic/Mod. Adam was shooting AA 3/4 ounce 7.5s out of his Uggie choked skt/mod and my son Nathan was shooting RST low recoil 3/4 6’s our of his ruger red label choked Skt/Ic. 

 

I have no idea how the B&P load patterns I have patterned it yet. I suspect the pattern pretty tight with a full length wad and I think perhaps the little extra shock from the faster round most shots were inside 25 yards and maybe a few more hits from a little tighter pattern. The B&P load is 15/16 ounce. Perhaps we just got better at centering the little speedsters in our pattern too. The only shell tha produced similar results was the Fiochi golden pheasant in #6s we used after we ran out of B&P. 

 

We had birds look like a pillow case exploded with our standard rounds laying on the desert floor wake up and fly away when the dogs went to retrieve them. That just didn’t happen with the other shells. I  used to think Chukar were the toughest game bird and I still think the are tougher to knock out of the air but ounce for ounce a little gambles quail is as tough and wily as they come. We had them look pulverized and run down snake holes and under boulders run into giant prickle pear bunches wake up after being knocked out cold and fly away.

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Garbi
On 1/21/2018 at 10:17 PM, ThreeDogs said:

 

It’s a great question!!! Let me first say I’m a died in the wool moderate velocity low recoil guy. Dead is dead. I argued with my buddy for a day and a half before I would try his B&P shells he just swore by them...

 

I was shooting the win superx 1 ounce load of 7.5s out of my Aya choked ic/Mod. Adam was shooting AA 3/4 ounce 7.5s out of his Uggie choked skt/mod and my son Nathan was shooting RST low recoil 3/4 6’s our of his ruger red label choked Skt/Ic. 

 

I have no idea how the B&P load patterns I have patterned it yet. I suspect the pattern pretty tight with a full length wad and I think perhaps the little extra shock from the faster round most shots were inside 25 yards and maybe a few more hits from a little tighter pattern. The B&P load is 15/16 ounce. Perhaps we just got better at centering the little speedsters in our pattern too. The only shell tha produced similar results was the Fiochi golden pheasant in #6s we used after we ran out of B&P. 

 

We had birds look like a pillow case exploded with our standard rounds laying on the desert floor wake up and fly away when the dogs went to retrieve them. That just didn’t happen with the other shells. I  used to think Chukar were the toughest game bird and I still think the are tougher to knock out of the air but ounce for ounce a little gambles quail is as tough and wily as they come. We had them look pulverized and run down snake holes and under boulders run into giant prickle pear bunches wake up after being knocked out cold and fly away.

 

I’ve shot gambels with B&P loads, it wallops them, however it isn’t the velocity, it’s the quality of the lead that does it.  The load I was shooting was nickel plated #7’s at 1280.  Didn’t lose a single bird, the guide was impressed.  Those same pellets at 1200 or 1150 would have done the same. 

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ThreeDogs
9 hours ago, Garbi said:

 

I’ve shot gambels with B&P loads, it wallops them, however it isn’t the velocity, it’s the quality of the lead that does it.  The load I was shooting was nickel plated #7’s at 1280.  Didn’t lose a single bird, the guide was impressed.  Those same pellets at 1200 or 1150 would have done the same. 

 

Interesting observation you very well could be right. What load were you using?

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Garbi
23 hours ago, ThreeDogs said:

 

Interesting observation you very well could be right. What load were you using?

 

It was the 20 gauge F2 classic load of 15/16 ounce of nickel 7’s.  I’m not sure if they make it anymore as B&P is always changing their lineup in the US.  They have gone back to regular lead in a lot of their loads but even their tempered lead is incredibly good, I use their 1 1/8 heavy dove load in #6 for driven pheasants.  I killed three birds stone dead in excess of 60 yards with it last weekend with the shoot master watching behind me.  Everyone thought I was shooting 1 1/4.  High quality lead at slow speeds is the ticket for me for all hunting scenarios.

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