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mccuha

Guild gun

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mccuha

that's where I got the discreptions of what was said ea proof mark meant. I can't find anything on a few of the marks.

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mccuha

also I don't know how to post the pics I have.

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mccuha

I don’t know much about Belgium made sxs. Are they not a well made gun.  What research I’ve seen it looks like they are not looked upon very highly.  

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quailguy
On 1/23/2018 at 8:18 AM, mccuha said:

CH  Haaken Fils Liege

see: https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/44/417/belgium-double-barrel

No photo but seems a nice gun.

 

From a French site: CH HAAKEN Fils à LIEGE: mark of the manufacturer Charles HAAKEN Son street Jonfosse in LIEGE. It began in 1859 following his father Charles HAAKEN-PLOMDEUR, under the denomination CH. HAAKEN & Cie. In 1894 until 1898, it became CH. HAAKEN Fils before yielding its company to DEBRUS Louis.

 Better Translation: it became CH Haaken Fils before being bought by Louis Debrus in 1898. The company seems to have made mostly pistols and I wonder if the shotguns were not made by someone else ???

So far as I know a plomdeur is a bullet or ammo maker ?? Larry B any ideas?

 

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mccuha
1 hour ago, quailguy said:

see: https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/44/417/belgium-double-barrel

No photo but seems a nice gun.

 

From a French site: CH HAAKEN Fils à LIEGE: mark of the manufacturer Charles HAAKEN Son street Jonfosse in LIEGE. It began in 1859 following his father Charles HAAKEN-PLOMDEUR, under the denomination CH. HAAKEN & Cie. In 1894 until 1898, it became CH. HAAKEN Fils before yielding its company to DEBRUS Louis.

 Better Translation: it became CH Haaken Fils before being bought by Louis Debrus in 1898. The company seems to have made mostly pistols and I wonder if the shotguns were not made by someone else ???

So far as I know a plomdeur is a bullet or ammo maker ?? Larry B any ideas?

 

Thanks rick for finding this out I don’t really know a lot about what all the proof marks mean

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quailguy
On 1/23/2018 at 12:37 PM, mccuha said:

I don’t know much about Belgium made sxs. Are they not a well made gun.  What research I’ve seen it looks like they are not looked upon very highly.  

 

  The problem with Belgium made guns is the quality is so variable. Lots of low cost/low quality shotguns were made in Belgium and sold in the US. Beware of shooting these old guns; especially if they have damascus barrels, unless checked by a competent shotgun smith. OTOH there are some very fine Belgian guns (Dumolin, Browning Superposed, Francotte, etc.) Belgium is one place it really pays to know something about the gunmaker.

  http://www.chuckhawks.com/belgian_best_shotguns.htm

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mccuha
2 hours ago, quailguy said:

 

  The problem with Belgium made guns is the quality is so variable. Lots of low cost/low quality shotguns were made in Belgium and sold in the US. Beware of shooting these old guns; especially if they have damascus barrels, unless checked by a competent shotgun smith. OTOH there are some very fine Belgian guns (Dumolin, Browning Superposed, Francotte, etc.) Belgium is one place it really pays to know something about the gunmaker.

  http://www.chuckhawks.com/belgian_best_shotguns.htm

What’s your feelings on the maker of the gun in question. I maybe wrong but it looks like according to the serial no. It was made in 86

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quailguy
1 hour ago, mccuha said:
3 hours ago, quailguy said:

 

  The problem with Belgium made guns is the quality is so variable. Lots of low cost/low quality shotguns were made in Belgium and sold in the US. Beware of shooting these old guns; especially if they have damascus barrels, unless checked by a competent shotgun smith. OTOH there are some very fine Belgian guns (Dumolin, Browning Superposed, Francotte, etc.) Belgium is one place it really pays to know something about the gunmaker.

  http://www.chuckhawks.com/belgian_best_shotguns.htm

What’s your feelings on the maker of the gun in question. I maybe wrong but it looks like according to the serial no. It was made in 86

 Lol; I know zero about the maker so I'd pass. Lots of good European guns out there of good to superb quality and lower prices: Sauer, Simson, Francotte, Browning Superposed.

Heck a coupla months ago I found a Superposed 20 gauge in great condition for less than $2k, a 12 gauge for $995.

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mccuha

thanks for the info. That's what I was looking for.

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Larry Brown
On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 7:18 AM, mccuha said:

ok I got more info on the gun. I was out of town where I saw it. In a rush. Got shop owner to send me pics of markings and such. It has hammered fluid steel on barrel. on rib it has the name CH  Haaken Fils Liege

  marking indicate Belgium  has a marking indicating nitro proof, marking stating provisional black powder for breech loading guns, marking definitive black powder proof for breech loading guns,small bore guns and hand guns

 

also has a stamp that has looks like  AZ or A7 with a star over top

finaly it has in a diamond shape  one says 2C with a C under it the other diamond has 2S with a C under it

 

it has a possible serial no. P1K1986

and it has  70 looks like a percent sign and right under that no. it says 17.6

 

I hope this is some info that can be taken and deciphered

 

any help with this is appreciated.

OK, that helps.  Let's see if we can unravel the mystery:  The diamond shape, appears part of the mark is worn away.  It would be 20 over a C, which tells you it's a 20 gauge.  Also tells you it was made before 1924, because otherwise it would have another type of gauge and chamber length mark on it.  The 70 is 70MM chambers:  2 3/4", so although made before 1924, I'd guess not long before because of the 2 3/4" chambers.  The 17.6 is a mystery.  That should be either the bore or choke diameter, but it can't be either one.  17.6 is about .693 when converted to inches.  Standard 20ga bore diameter is .615.  .693 is about halfway between 16 and 12 gauge.  Could it possibly be 15.6?  That would be just about perfect for 20ga bore diameter.

 

What you're reading as a serial number is the weight.  P=poids, which is weight in French.  So the barrels on your gun weigh slightly more than one kilogram (the 1K part), which is pretty light.  The stamp with the star on top is the inspector's mark and doesn't really help you.  Some people try to apply it to a date, but you only get a range of years with those marks.

 

The Haaken-Plomdeur part in a later post . . . "plomb" is French for lead, but the b would not have been dropped--and "plomdeur" does not appear in either of my French dictionaries.  I'm pretty sure he just had a hyphenated last name.

 

I'd say $700 isn't far out of the ballpark, IF:  The gun is tight, fits you, bores are not pitted, trigger pulls are neither heavy nor creepy, and the barrels ring.  (Suspend them with your finger of one hand in the hook and flick them with a fingernail of the other hand--or better yet, tap them with a wooden pencil if you have one handy.)  They should ring and they should NOT either clank or rattle.  Did you determine whether the gun has ejectors?

 

If you want, email me the photos (ljoelbrown@gmail.com) and I'll let you know what I think.  But so far, if the gun passes the above tests, I think it may be OK for $700 or a little less.

 

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tnwestes

So, I feel somewhat guilty, but I’m also laughing at the coincidence. 

 

I had not seen this thread until just this morning, but I was traveling through Kansas City a week ago on my way to quail hunt in parts unnamed and picked this gun up. I had been looking for a good, short-barreled, open-choked shooter grouse gun. 

 

They wouldn’t deal much on price, but I think it was worth what I paid, and it should prove to be just what I was looking for if I can shoot the thing.

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TonyS

Looks like just the gun for chukar hunting.   Ah yes, first slide of your feet on shale from under you while holding it.

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tnwestes
2 minutes ago, TonyS said:

Looks like just the gun for chukar hunting.   Ah yes, first slide of your feet on shale from under you while holding it.

 

Yep, same thing when hunting grouse in the Southern Appalachians ‘cept there are trees and vegetation involved, along with slippery wet rocks. 

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Don Steese

I'm fortunate to know a gunsmith who specializes in vintage guns. He went over mine and pronounced it of fine quality.  Not everyone is so fortunate. Hard to tell the jewels from the junk if you don't know what to look for. 

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mccuha
4 hours ago, tnwestes said:

So, I feel somewhat guilty, but I’m also laughing at the coincidence. 

 

I had not seen this thread until just this morning, but I was traveling through Kansas City a week ago on my way to quail hunt in parts unnamed and picked this gun up. I had been looking for a good, short-barreled, open-choked shooter grouse gun. 

 

They wouldn’t deal much on price, but I think it was worth what I paid, and it should prove to be just what I was looking for if I can shoot the thing.

I started to buy it the day I saw it but had a few conserns  they said it had came in the day before I came in.  Nice gun but the breaker for me was I wanted a gun I could safely with piece of mind know that I could shoot any modern loads in it and due to the age of the gun and helpful info I got from here I passed.  Good luck with it.  Hope it’s a shooter for you

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