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RMH

Dog DNA tests

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RMH

Anyone ever test a dog's dna? I have a mixed breed dog. It's a long story how this came about, I didn't get him hunt with. A family member got him as a pup. When the dog was 8 months old my son's work situation forced him find a new home for the dog. I was dogless, had been for about a year. My previous dog, Gus, a great Springer Spaniel died from lyme disease complications. I had some medical troubles of my own at the time, so had remained without a dog. Only time in my life from my earliest memories I'd not had a dog. Anyway at the time I wasn't sure if bird hunting would be in my future again and missed not having a dog. So Orion came to be with us. My son had seen the mother and the litter mates. He said the mom looked like a big Brittany, he had a picture of her with the pups. She did look like a Brit but a bit shorter coated than most and seemed leggy. I know some lines of Brittany's are pretty tall and as heavy feathered as they once were. Short, stubby tail, orange and white. The sire was supposedly a Labrador that was silver/gray. I'd never heard of such, assumed it was maybe a Weimaraner. I have since come across "Silver Labs" in internet searches, who knew?

Orion is white with mousey gray-brown markings. A natural bobtail. Two other of the eight littermates had short tails too. All pups were white with markings ranging from black, brown, orange and Orion's grayish color. He's now 2 years old, 25" at the shoulder and about 65 lbs. He is bulkier than how the mother looks in the picture I saw. He points at birds. When we got him we still had a few chickens. He'd follow them around, point, hold for several moments then charge and scatter them. He'll point a Blue Jays if they land on low bushes in the yard.

I'm curious now what is in him. I don't how reliable the dna tests are and hate to waste money if it's inaccurate. So, any experience with these? 

Orion1.JPG

Orion2.JPG

Orion4.JPG

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lee sykes

Looks like a pointer xed with a Jack Russell Terrier.  whichever parent was the J.R. It has lived up to the breed's reputation for determination and resourcefulness. :)

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Marc Ret

All I can add is he's a handsome fella. Enjoy him for who he is not what he is. 

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Kansas Bound

He does look like a brittany/lab mix.  What a handsome guy

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Cass

I like the look of him.  If you're curious I'd say go for it.  But whatever the results it wouldn't deter me from seeing what instincts I could bring out in the dog.  Could be the best bird dog you've ever seen.  

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RMH

Yes, he is a good looking dog. I plan to work him in the woods this summer and see what instincts he has, or doesn't have. I have had Springers in the past, so unless he locks up and instinctively points birds in the woods I'll not push it and let him flush. He's not overly independent so I think he could be kept close and work as a flusher. I think I'd rather it be that way. I know what I'm doing working with flushers. I have no expectation though, he's a good boy and a nice dog. If nothing becomes of the hunting end I'm at the point where I think I'm pulled together enough health wise to start a new pup. If Orion turns out to be a reasonable hunter I'll be good to go. If I do test him, I'll post what I find.

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lee sykes

I have found that any pre-conceived notions that I ever had about a new dog, were completely destroyed by the time that dog was done with me.  Always was a nice surprise.     enhance

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DocE

What would even be the purpose in knowing ?

.

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RMH

My interest in knowing Orion's genetic make up is mostly curiosity. Genetics interest me. In regard to my dog and what I know of his back ground I looked at what his genetic make up could be to have the phenotype he has. As to his bobtail, it's most likely the C189G gene. There are a very few breeds that have bobtails without this. There aren't many breeds that have this trait at all so he has ancestry to a fairly small group in this regard. It would appear it's through the mother. Orion is bb, double recessive for the B gene [black, brown], since he's gray-brown. The mom was orange-yellow, so she could be either Bb or bb. With little known about the father and nothing really verified his make up can be assessed from what is missing or needs to be present to get the end results, the traits of the litter. He could be Bb or bb depending on which the mother is. One must be Bb to have had some pups black. We know Orion is Ee for the E gene since mom was orange-yellow but he isn't. It takes ee to get the orange-yellow-red color. Mom is this color so she's ee. The father has to be Ee since there was orange pups, but also other colors. The D gene, the dilution gene would cause the gray. So Orion would be dd. The mom has to be Dd. The father, if he really was gray would be dd, but if he wasn't would need to be Dd. There are a limited number of breeds that have the recessive d, D gene. Most breeds are DD.

So Orion is bb, Ee, dd and probably has the C189G gene. Unless he is a total mis-mash of breeds, a real mutt, there are a limited number of breeds he could have in him. Taking into account size, build, coat type and general appearance it's narrowed a bit more. From this I made a list of "likely" breeds the mother could have since I know a little about her. I filled in the gaps for possibles for the father, assuming he was gray as reported. The list expands if not, but this can't be known. From this I've made some guess choices as to likely breeds involved, disregarding rare and obscure breeds and those who's traits are extremely different from Orion's. To get the needed genetic combination for the traits mentioned required both parents to be mixed breed. I based my assumptions on two breed crosses. The speculation needed to be more complex than that isn't really possible, though this could be the truth of it all.

 I want to see how close my detective work is to the reality of it. But only if I have confidence that the tests available are reasonably accurate. That's why I asked if anyone's had experience with these tests. My reading on them gives me the impression the results are mixed. It's been a long winter, I needed something to think about.

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Dogwood

The data base, at least as it stands now, is capable of determining whether a purebred dog is truly such, but very weak at accurately determining which breeds comprise a mixed breed dog.  I wouldn't waste my money accordingly.

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SLR
1 hour ago, RMH said:

My interest in knowing Orion's genetic make up is mostly curiosity. Genetics interest me. In regard to my dog and what I know of his back ground I looked at what his genetic make up could be to have the phenotype he has. As to his bobtail, it's most likely the C189G gene. There are a very few breeds that have bobtails without this. There aren't many breeds that have this trait at all so he has ancestry to a fairly small group in this regard. It would appear it's through the mother. Orion is bb, double recessive for the B gene [black, brown], since he's gray-brown. The mom was orange-yellow, so she could be either Bb or bb. With little known about the father and nothing really verified his make up can be assessed from what is missing or needs to be present to get the end results, the traits of the litter. He could be Bb or bb depending on which the mother is. One must be Bb to have had some pups black. We know Orion is Ee for the E gene since mom was orange-yellow but he isn't. It takes ee to get the orange-yellow-red color. Mom is this color so she's ee. The father has to be Ee since there was orange pups, but also other colors. The D gene, the dilution gene would cause the gray. So Orion would be dd. The mom has to be Dd. The father, if he really was gray would be dd, but if he wasn't would need to be Dd. There are a limited number of breeds that have the recessive d, D gene. Most breeds are DD.

So Orion is bb, Ee, dd and probably has the C189G gene. Unless he is a total mis-mash of breeds, a real mutt, there are a limited number of breeds he could have in him. Taking into account size, build, coat type and general appearance it's narrowed a bit more. From this I made a list of "likely" breeds the mother could have since I know a little about her. I filled in the gaps for possibles for the father, assuming he was gray as reported. The list expands if not, but this can't be known. From this I've made some guess choices as to likely breeds involved, disregarding rare and obscure breeds and those who's traits are extremely different from Orion's. To get the needed genetic combination for the traits mentioned required both parents to be mixed breed. I based my assumptions on two breed crosses. The speculation needed to be more complex than that isn't really possible, though this could be the truth of it all.

 I want to see how close my detective work is to the reality of it. But only if I have confidence that the tests available are reasonably accurate. That's why I asked if anyone's had experience with these tests. My reading on them gives me the impression the results are mixed. It's been a long winter, I needed something to think about.

You seem to have the coat color genotype well worked out. As for the bob tail, the gene is the T box transcription factor and C189G refers to the point mutation that is a transversion from C to G that is found for many bob tail phenotypes. There are quite a few breeds that show this mutation, which acts dominantly. In fact the evidence is that a homozygous mutation for this is lethal in utero. Ref: https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/Bobtail.php   There is a very interesting series of articles about some experimental crosses between Corgi and Boxer to introduce a natural bob tail to the boxer. What was most interesting to me was the relatively few back crosses it took to get the line looking exactly like a boxer again. Ref: http://www.steynmere.co.uk/ARTICLES10.html

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Virgil Kane

My DIL had their Red Bone coon hound checked and it came back as a Rhodesian Ridgeback.  Go figure? o.O

 

Virgil 

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RMH

SLR, I have seen those articles. Thanks for putting how they can be found. Also thanks for clarifying the terms for natural bobtail. I was trying to keep the terms I used as basic I could yet remain clear. You sound like you're familiar with dog genetics. I've not found anything about incomplete expression of dilution, or of other ways to get gray coat color. Any thoughts? Thanks Virgil Kane for that example, that is an example of my concern. I can understand that some unexpected result could come up as a small percentage of a dogs ancestry, even in pure breds. Especially if it's a similar breed. In small segments dna  could resemble a different breed and be reported as such even if it isn't correct. 

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RMH

Update on dna results. I did the test on Orion. Breeds identified,

Foxhound 1/4

Beagle 1/8

Labrador 1/4

Weimaraner 1/8

Unidentified mix of Sporting and, or Hound breed or breeds. 1/4

Still don't know where the bobtail came from. I'll see what he has for natural interest and inclination, but I'm going to start a new pup too.

 

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Kansas Bound

Interesting, thank you for the update.

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