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Jack L

Trend against habitat

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Brad Eden

I've let out a lot of rope on this Topic. Don't expect that to become a habit. Some Members take advantage when I allow even a scintilla of Politics in. Lead it back to the Upland habitat trend "theme" or it's likely to get closed, even if it has been civil and resourceful thus far. This is a No Politics Board and has been since 2002, and that will never change. Thank you.

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sharptail grouse
29 minutes ago, Brad Eden said:

I've let out a lot of rope on this Topic. Don't expect that to become a habit. Some Members take advantage when I allow even a scintilla of Politics in. Lead it back to the Upland habitat trend "theme" or it's likely to get closed, even if it has been civil and resourceful thus far. This is a No Politics Board and has been since 2002, and that will never change. Thank you.

No one ever accused me of leaving a lot of rope lying around  9_9  Sorry.

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GB Jack
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, sharptail grouse said:

I'll take a quick stab (he said with a lurid grin as he leaned over the chopping block). To me uncontrolled means the government allowing the free market to roll ever onward with no oversight in regards to the economy etc. - "lasseze faire". Good or bad, stay out of it and let the markets take care of themselves.  To me this puts the market above everything else and invites abuse in the realm of environment and social policy. Maybe I'm confusing economics with social issues, but to my mind they are inextricably entwined. I don't see how we can separate them anymore.

I can understand that view, so would trade violations and tre fraud and abuse laws of the current DOJ regulate that? Or are you asking for more regulation .

 

tbis isn’t politics brad, this is philosophy of business and regulation, two different things . 

Edited by GB Jack

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sharptail grouse
Just now, GB Jack said:

I can understand that view, so would trade violations and tre fraud and abuse laws of the current DOJ regulate that? Or are you asking for more regulation 

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking - maybe a typo - what is "tre fraud"? Does it have to do with upland habitat because this is where Brad has "asked" us to go.

I can feel the rope .....  😱

 

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caleb
On 3/28/2019 at 4:53 PM, 123 said:

In the end we decide on a clean water standard and write a simple law that says this is how much “stuff” that can come off your land and if you exceed that “x” will happen to you.

 

I can't help but think of drainage and the flooding in Nebraska right now, with that "stuff" being water.

 

It's pretty clear that a major root cause of what's become regular flooding in the Missouri and Mississippi valleys is ever-quicker drainage.  We drained the wetlands, then we tiled the fields.  Now we act surprised that the rivers can't handle all the water coming in at mach 3?

 

The best pheasant habitat program I could imagine would be mandating that every plot of land retains the water that melts/falls on it for a defined period of sufficient length that the expedient method of compliance is the permanent reestablishment of historical wetlands.  The water has to go somewhere, and the default shouldn't be that all of it is dumped with impunity on the folks downstream.

 

The devil is, of course, in the details and enforcement.  Enforcing non-point pollution standards is labor intensive and often locally unpopular.

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caleb
On 3/22/2019 at 2:29 PM, 123 said:

I also find it unfortunate that the rural vs. urban culture war has been used to convince those of us in rural areas that it is a good idea to let our land, water, and quality of life be degraded in order to produce cheap crappy calories and consolidate wealth that for the most part leaves.  At the moment rural America is being scammed on a colossal basis.  It’s hard to believe some times, can you imagine if in the burbs every time it rained a few hundred gallons of pig crap ended up in someone’s pool? How would that go?  Out here were all like hey no problem put some in my well while you’re at it.

 

Great point, and somehow it never gets connected to why young people are leaving rural areas, and why those areas have been losing population since about the point that clean farming took hold.

 

If farming is going to drain every drop of life from the land and figure out a way to monetize it for personal profit, why would a non-farmer live on that landscape?  There's just nothing left for anyone but the landowner.

 

Meanwhile, as you mention, there are environmental downsides that likely have longterm health impacts.

 

It seems pretty clear that a good number of people are going to pull up stakes.  I'm one of them.  No way would I head back to the farm town where I grew up, even if there were a great job there.  Living in the middle of a gazillion acres plowed ditch-to-ditch while increasing your cancer risk seems thoroughly unattractive.

 

When we talk about midwestern rural decline, we should be talking about the (lack of) quality of life current ag practices provide for the broader community.  Until that conversation happens, I don't think there's any reversing demographic trends, and instead people will continue to vote with their feet.

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Ndi32
6 hours ago, caleb said:

 

It seems pretty clear that a good number of people are going to pull up stakes.  I'm one of them.  No way would I head back to the farm town where I grew up, even if there were a great job there.  Living in the middle of a gazillion acres plowed ditch-to-ditch while increasing your cancer risk seems thoroughly unattractive.

 

When we talk about midwestern rural decline, we should be talking about the (lack of) quality of life current ag practices provide for the broader community.  Until that conversation happens, I don't think there's any reversing demographic trends, and instead people will continue to vote with their feet.

 

This was me in rural Indiana 25-years ago.  Growing up in the 70's into the early 80's every farm had 3 or 4 covey of quail, plenty of cottontails to chase, the farm ponds were clean (and the crappies tasted clean), one could wade the creeks and small rivers and catch nice Smallmouth bass. 

 

By the time I graduated college and established a career the landscape had changed dramatically. Farm ponds receiving field run off or animal waste were hugely impacted. The quail were gone & the rabbits almost gone. The creeks and rivers were silted in and overrun with rough fish.  Even morel hunting was impacted because most farmers started running cattle in places they never did before.  What you are seeing in MN in more recent years is just Big Ag impacts marching west like Sherman's Army.  Big reason why I moved here in '98 was not just because of access to the lakes & north woods but also because of the opportunity to reconnect to a farmland wildlife landscape that was at least similar to what I grew up with......

 

Sad part is the Ag industry brainwashing is so thorough that my father, his siblings and countless others who still live in the area all possess a myriad of of mental compensations (that have nothing to do with changing farm practices) as to why things have changed.  It usually boils down to too many hawks & coyotes, DNR not being able to control the carp & rough fish, birds bringing in pond weeds that were never here before etc. etc. 

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sharptail grouse
2 hours ago, Ndi32 said:

 

This was me in rural Indiana 25-years ago.  Growing up in the 70's into the early 80's every farm had 3 or 4 covey of quail, plenty of cottontails to chase, the farm ponds were clean (and the crappies tasted clean), one could wade the creeks and small rivers and catch nice Smallmouth bass. 

 

By the time I graduated college and established a career the landscape had changed dramatically. Farm ponds receiving field run off or animal waste were hugely impacted. The quail were gone & the rabbits almost gone. The creeks and rivers were silted in and overrun with rough fish.  Even morel hunting was impacted because most farmers started running cattle in places they never did before.  What you are seeing in MN in more recent years is just Big Ag impacts marching west like Sherman's Army.  Big reason why I moved here in '98 was not just because of access to the lakes & north woods but also because of the opportunity to reconnect to a farmland wildlife landscape that was at least similar to what I grew up with......

 

Sad part is the Ag industry brainwashing is so thorough that my father, his siblings and countless others who still live in the area all possess a myriad of of mental compensations (that have nothing to do with changing farm practices) as to why things have changed.  It usually boils down to too many hawks & coyotes, DNR not being able to control the carp & rough fish, birds bringing in pond weeds that were never here before etc. etc. 

That was me too, only in Missouri. Very good post.

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