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Ridge Runner

Full frame vs. crop sensor - 2 things

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Ridge Runner

Quick questions.  I have gotten different responses from camera and lens manufacturers on the subjects, so thought I would rely on all your expertise.  

 

The old rule of hand held shooting is to go no slower than 1/xxx where xxx is the focal length of the lens.  Agreed?  (Please disregard camera & lens stabilization for this discussion).  So, for a Full frame camera, using a 100 mm lens, the minimum shutter speed would be 1/100.  Right?  Stop; yawning Greg! 

 

So, on a crop sensor camera, should you use that same speed, or correct for the crop, say 1.5 thus making the minimum speed of 1/150th sec?

 

Secondly, Greg, I know you stated that using the one full frame camera you had with 40,000 or 40000 mpxs or something like that was much more challenging than your previous camera as it was more critical to get everything right.  Still feel that way???   Care to expound???

 

Recently got a Sony Mirrorless FF in that same mpx range.  Haven't used it much yet.  Probably won't be having time to do any serious work with it for another month.  And, then, I will be without internet, so hence the question.  Hope to be prepared for what the camera throws my way before I lose communication.

 

Thanks

  

 

 

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Greg Hartman

A good FF camera with a really good lens is capable of far more resolution than a film camera.  Back in the day when the rule you cite as being developed, there were only film cameras.  The rule worked (more or less - you had to be a bit careful of how you held the camera when you released the shutter - a jerky hold could still result in camera movement blur).  IMO, the astounding resolution of a good full frame digital camera with a really good lens makes that rule obsolete.  A top quality modern camera will showcase every mistake in technique, including camera movement blur from a shutter speed that is too slow. 

 

The other side of that coin is that, back in the film days, an ISO (we called it ASA then) of 400 was considered pretty fast.  Going much beyond that caused unacceptable levels of grain (now called "noise").  So, slow shutter speeds were needed in anything less than strong light.  Now, a FF camera can easily go to ISO 6400 or more before you start to see too much noise. So, much faster shutter speeds are possible in a given situation than were possible back in the day.

 

To cut to the chase, I do not use a shutter speed less than 1/125 with a 35mm lens on a top quality FF camera for general still photography to avoid camera movement blur.  Even then, you must be a bit careful with how you release the shutter.  On a film camera, 1/35 would probably been ok (with a bit of care on the shutter release).

 

That said, technique matters - a lot.  If you can REALLY hold a camera still and release the shutter like you are breaking the trigger on a 600 yard shot with a rifle, you can go with way slower shutter speeds.  Slow shutter speeds are nice in certain situations, like running water, even though you could go to a higher ISO without much loss in IQ and use a higher shutter speed.

 

This pic of a little waterfall on the brook, for example, was taken with a FF camera and a really good lens at a VERY slow 1/3 second - VERY, VERY carefully handheld.  The non-moving parts of it are not tack sharp by any means, but sharp enough if you don't look too close, and the water is a nice milky blur.  So, rules are meant to be broken at times.

 

11-27-18 - High water in the brook

 

This pic of another mini-waterfall in my little brook on my place was shot with a crop sensor (APS-C) camera handheld at 1/15 and is much more tolerant of camera movement blur:

 

3-16-18 - Water fall in brook

 

Hope this helps.  Good luck with your new camera.  I'm anxious to see your stuff on your return.

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BlacknTan

I always read these threads with great interest, hoping I can someday improve a little bit.

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Ridge Runner

Ok Greg,

 

Thanks.  Will try your suggestion when things clear. 

 

Seems like I am always battling low light issues and have learned numerous techniques to help.  Bracing, long range rifle techniques,  rear button focus, multiple shots with pressing the fire button only once while autobracketing exposure, etc.  Had been doing well with Crop sensor cameras.  It took a little getting used to the lighter, more compact mirrorless crop cameras, but using common sense went a long way to getting the shot quality I was used to with Canons.  And then came the Mirrorless Full Frame.  Definitely tougher, but have seen the potential also, so....    

 

I thought I was being very conservative with using the reciprocal rule whenever possible, especially considering image stabilization technology in most lenses and even many camera bodies these days.  Thought that technology would provide a cushion so to speak.    

 

So, what do you think of IS then?   Does the technology do what the manufacturers claim in your opinion?

 

What if you were using an excellent older legacy prime lens without IS, on a modern digital crop camera body, without IS?  Would you normally try to shoot a faster shutter speed than 1/125th?     (Assuming this was for a sharp, clear type desired shot rather than intentional artistic blur and such.)

 

 

 

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Remo

Good discussion for us newbys, please keep it going.

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dgfavor
Quote

What if you were using an excellent older legacy prime lens without IS, on a modern digital crop camera body, without IS?  Would you normally try to shoot a faster shutter speed than 1/125th?     (Assuming this was for a sharp, clear type desired shot rather than intentional artistic blur and such.)

 

New or old, IS or no IS...I'd use a tripod and remote trigger and shoot at the speed I think the desired shot requires.  ;)  

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Ridge Runner

Yes, I agree tripods and remote release triggers sure can make it easier. 

 

Trouble is most of my photo work happens while walking thru the woods, swamps, and mountains chasing after pointing dogs out of horseback lines.   And, well, I am looking to lighten the load of gear such as water, gps, ... and my camera and lens along with a cell phone, ......  And, those ridges are getting steeper and higher, or I am getting older!  Been at this game for over 53 years, so probably is not going to get any easier.  Carrying more is not an option at my age.  Not looking for a repeat on the heart attack experience.   

 

RR

 

 

   

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Ridge Runner

Greg,

 

By the way, there are times that I am starting to get a little bored with your perfect shots!  😉  Could you step outside your comfort zone and post some bad shots.  You know, the kind that will demonstrate what not to do?    Thought it might present a new challenge for you! 

 

RR

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Greg Hartman
On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 7:35 PM, Ridge Runner said:

Ok Greg,

 

Thanks.  Will try your suggestion when things clear. 

 

Seems like I am always battling low light issues and have learned numerous techniques to help.  Bracing, long range rifle techniques,  rear button focus, multiple shots with pressing the fire button only once while autobracketing exposure, etc.  Had been doing well with Crop sensor cameras.  It took a little getting used to the lighter, more compact mirrorless crop cameras, but using common sense went a long way to getting the shot quality I was used to with Canons.  And then came the Mirrorless Full Frame.  Definitely tougher, but have seen the potential also, so....    

 

I thought I was being very conservative with using the reciprocal rule whenever possible, especially considering image stabilization technology in most lenses and even many camera bodies these days.  Thought that technology would provide a cushion so to speak.    

 

So, what do you think of IS then?   Does the technology do what the manufacturers claim in your opinion?

 

What if you were using an excellent older legacy prime lens without IS, on a modern digital crop camera body, without IS?  Would you normally try to shoot a faster shutter speed than 1/125th?     (Assuming this was for a sharp, clear type desired shot rather than intentional artistic blur and such.)

 

 

 

 

Long range rifle techniques serve quite well when doing low-light/slow shutter speed photography.  It's pretty much the same thing.

 

I'm not sure what to think of IS.  Only one of my cameras has it and it is in-body IS, as opposed to lens IS.  I'm a dinosaur, having learned photography 40 years before IS existed, so I guess I pretty much ignore it.  All of my comments above reflect this philosophy.   That said, it probably does help.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an non-IS crop sensor camera (carefully using rifle techniques) at 1/lens focal length in mm.  

 

 

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Greg Hartman
10 hours ago, Ridge Runner said:

Greg,

 

By the way, there are times that I am starting to get a little bored with your perfect shots!  😉  Could you step outside your comfort zone and post some bad shots.  You know, the kind that will demonstrate what not to do?    Thought it might present a new challenge for you! 

 

RR

 

Don't worry - I have PLENTY of lousy shots.  I often shoot the little RX100V at 24 fps when trying to capture action, so it's not hard to get hundreds of frames from one outing.  I sift through all of those to try to find a good one.  I am VERY ruthless at trashing anything that is less than perfect.

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juneboy1

Hey Greg, just got the Fjifilm XF 100-400 lens. We took it to Grand Isle La. for bird migration this last week. Wow, with your, DG, Irish and a few others skill set it would be unbelievable. I'll post some little bird pics soon. 

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Remo
On 4/18/2019 at 2:17 PM, juneboy1 said:

Hey Greg, just got the Fjifilm XF 100-400 lens. We took it to Grand Isle La. for bird migration this last week. Wow, with your, DG, Irish and a few others skill set it would be unbelievable. I'll post some little bird pics soon. 

 

Please do so. 

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Greg Hartman
On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 3:17 PM, juneboy1 said:

Hey Greg, just got the Fjifilm XF 100-400 lens. We took it to Grand Isle La. for bird migration this last week. Wow, with your, DG, Irish and a few others skill set it would be unbelievable. I'll post some little bird pics soon. 

 

 

Yes, please!  Would love to see them!

 

I've been tempted by that lens, too, but haven't been able to make myself part with the bux as yet.

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Don fischer

All this stuff is pretty confusing to me. In low light I up the ISO and don't fret it. Seem's to work fine. I couldn't make a living at photography but what I get work's fine for me and other's that are clueless. I also print all my own photo's. Have a good number I've gone up to 13x19 with and they look good to me. One thing that seem's to hurt really bad is a low pixel count. My D7000 has something like 16 or 18 pixels and I can crop a photo pretty hard and still get a good blow up out of it. My D70 was 12 pixels and I couldn't do that.

 

Did this photo of my Stormy with the D7000 and cropped it in Picasa. Cropped out quite a bit for a 13x19 photo and ran it into my printer. At 13x19 the printer say's I'll get an excellent photo with 190 pics per sq inch. Things you can do with digital and your own printer and free edit program are amazing. I use free version of Picasa to edit, have some that are supposed to be better but can't figure out how to work them! Use an old, well old now, Canon Pro 9000 13" printer.

 

cOXwlo4l.jpg

 

Look's good on my wall!

 

I should mention, I use a crop sensor. A better photographer might well do better with a full frame but don't know that it would help me at all. With all the pixels in modern cameras I'm not sure FF is worth it. But I have a brother that is a pro and a nephew that should be and the swear by their full frame camera's. Either could take my camera and blow me out of the water with my own camera. It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian! 

 

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