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McGwire admits 'roid use


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The whole argument that it doesn’t help you hit a ball is bullchit.  Complete bullchit.  How many Otis Nixon-like slap hitters playing 2B juiced and turned into guys that can hit 10-15HRs and 30 doubles by slapping it into the alleys better?

Eh……whatever………..this whole thing burns my arse.  Frickin’ cheaters……

Lady Brady Anderson comes to mind Steve.  In 1995 he hit 16 dingers and came back in '96 and looked like a blown up version of himself. He hit 50 HR's that year which may still be a record for lead off hitters.  He never hit more than 24 besides '96 and is considered the poster boy in Baltimore for what steroids can do.

The whole lot of them should be ingnored and not admitted to the HOF.

YES !!!!

Brian Roberts as well...........like "mini-Me" to Brady Anderson.

Even Adrian Beltre (Red Sox new 3B)........free agent year with LAD, 48 dingers, here are his full season HR totals:

15 20 13 21 23 48 19 25 26 25 8

If I hear one more person say it doesn't help you......I'm going to go nutts..........if it doesn't help you play, why did you take them?  Why did you take them when you weren't hurt? Why were you able to physically begin doing something at 34 years old that you couldn't come close to at 24 years old.....it isn't natural, it doesn't happen.

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some of these guys with inflated 'juiced' numbers will get in the HOF but we are keeping Pete Rose one of the best players (I said player) of all time out?

1). Pete Rose openingly gambled on games that he played in.

2). He ended the career of a very popular player in catcher Ray Fosse by purposely taking out his knee in a play at home.

What hurt Pete Rose is that he didn't have enough other players doing the bad things he was doing.  Ask people in the know, and they will tell you that what Rose maliciously and purposely did to Fosse to end his career is why the HOF voters didn't let the  gambling issue go away.

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Did Rose intend to injure or did he intend to end his career?  If it is the former, than a pitcher who has ever thrown at someone's head should never be considered.
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some of these guys with inflated 'juiced' numbers will get in the HOF but we are keeping Pete Rose one of the best players (I said player) of all time out?

1). Pete Rose openingly gambled on games that he played in.

2). He ended the career of a very popular player in catcher Ray Fosse by purposely taking out his knee in a play at home.

What hurt Pete Rose is that he didn't have enough other players doing the bad things he was doing.  Ask people in the know, and they will tell you that what Rose maliciously and purposely did to Fosse to end his career is why the HOF voters didn't let the  gambling issue go away.

Rose had nothing to do with Fosse's career ending.  Fosse's injury during the collision was his shoulder, not his knee.  Fosse's career ending neck injury was caused stopping a Reggie Jackson fight.

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LivermushBiscuit

What hurt Pete Rose is that he didn't have enough other players doing the bad things he was doing.

Oh my.  That's a good one.  Now you've come back around to my point, that this misbehavior and the condoning thereof is a sad reflection on our society.  If more people were criminals, then crime itself would be more tolerable, right?

Gary, I think it's admirable that you stick up for your friend.  But I also think it's woefully naive to believe he (LaRussa) was oblivious to the cheating.  For what it's worth, I don't think LaRussa feels it's cheating, or maybe even that cheating is bad.  I suspect that he shares the same sentiment as you: that if enough folks are doing the wrong thing, that perhaps it isn't that terribly wrong.

I choose to view steroid use as cheating, and unacceptable.  I don't cheat, and I don't like folks who do.  I think they're scumbags, along with those who enable them (LaRussa) and those who profit from it.

Like River19, I was in a position when my playing career ended, to go down the performance enhancement path.  I was a five-tool player, but none of those tools had the shine and marketability of the (eventual record-setting) position player in front of me on the depth chart.  I didn't decide to not do steroids because there wasn't a wave of similar behavior making it seem less sinful, I chose to fade gracefully into athletic insignificance because the alternative was plain wrong.

And again to my original point, Pete Rose isn't in the Hall because he did the one thing that carries an absolute zero-tolerance policy.  He gambled on baseball.  Pete was my baseball hero, and I defended him to anyone who'd listen...until, that is, I learned that he had lied about what he'd done.  And like McGuire, he only really fessed up when there was something to gain from it, or so he thought.

Perhaps we'll see a zero-tolerance policy regarding performance enhancing substances someday.  I hope so.  But I also hope that folks get away from the notion that what we need are more cheaters, so that cheating doesn't carry such a stigma.

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McGwire was pretty decent when he came up.  Didn't hit for high average but had power.  He and Canseco were the tag team 'roids duo.  Over time McGwire became a physical wreck though--one injury after another.  That's why he went on the juice.  To get back on the field.

He didn't come clean in his testimony to congress because he couldn't get immunity.  He's said that and it has been corroborated by a congressman involved...who said McGwire said he would tell congress he was using if he would be granted immunity.  The AG at the time said no.  Rather than have to lie like a number of others did, he went the "won't talk about the past" route.  Followed the advice of his lawyer.  Seems like a no brainer, tell the truth and admit a crime for which you might see time, or take the fifth so you don't have to lie or face time.  

My biggest problem--and for me it negates the chance of cutting him much of a break here--is his refusal to openly admit using helped him hit home runs.  Supposedly he calls Maris's widow to apoligise, then turns around and claims in an interview that it didn't help him hit home runs.  If your gonnna come clean, that ain't the way to go about it.  

If he does get used as a hitter I hope it's never forgotten by whoever elects hall of famers from here to eternity.  Another piece of evidence of poor character.

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DennisMcFeely
I can appreciate defending a friend, and I'm not interested in engaging in name calling, but in my view if LaRussa didn't know before now it's because he didn't want to know.  It'll be interesting to see who gets into the HOF and who doesn't.

Dennis

Dennis,

I think one of the problems with 'roids in the pro sports is just who is supposed to police this? Name one manager in any sport who has?

Other than Tony, name one manager/coach who's stood by his player, and guided him into coming clean and dealing with what's in front of them?

One of the steps in getting this 'riod problem under control is having guidelines for how to deal with it from the get go. And who's responsiblity it is to deal with it on a team level. That's something that's absent currently, and needs to be implemented.

Certainly blame has to go to the top.  The commissioner, players' union as well as other managers are culpable as well.  As big of a black eye as this has been on baseball, I'm naive enough to be surprised Selig chose to keep his head in the sand as if it would go away.  I mean, it's not like he has David Stern's herculean task of  shoveling against the tide trying to protect the NBA's image.  Oo.gif

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I've never been a star baseball player and I have never hunted water buffalo in Africa. I can only guess what that would be like. But his denial that the roids helped his performance was foolish.
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IF he bet on games he played in he must (as he said) been betting on them to win.. can't loose many games and have the resume' he has...

Rose, a switch hitter, is the all-time Major League leader in hits (4,256), games played (3,562), at-bats (14,053)[1], and outs (10,328). He won three World Series rings, three batting titles, one Most Valuable Player Award, two Gold Gloves, the Rookie of the Year Award, and made 17 All-Star appearances at an unequaled five different positions (2B, LF, RF, 3B & 1B).

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What hurt Pete Rose is that he didn't have enough other players doing the bad things he was doing.

Oh my.  That's a good one.  Now you've come back around to my point, that this misbehavior and the condoning thereof is a sad reflection on our society.  If more people were criminals, then crime itself would be more tolerable, right?

Gary, I think it's admirable that you stick up for your friend.  But I also think it's woefully naive to believe he (LaRussa) was oblivious to the cheating.  For what it's worth, I don't think LaRussa feels it's cheating, or maybe even that cheating is bad.  I suspect that he shares the same sentiment as you: that if enough folks are doing the wrong thing, that perhaps it isn't that terribly wrong.

I choose to view steroid use as cheating, and unacceptable.  I don't cheat, and I don't like folks who do.  I think they're scumbags, along with those who enable them (LaRussa) and those who profit from it.

Like River19, I was in a position when my playing career ended, to go down the performance enhancement path.  I was a five-tool player, but none of those tools had the shine and marketability of the (eventual record-setting) position player in front of me on the depth chart.  I didn't decide to not do steroids because there wasn't a wave of similar behavior making it seem less sinful, I chose to fade gracefully into athletic insignificance because the alternative was plain wrong.

And again to my original point, Pete Rose isn't in the Hall because he did the one thing that carries an absolute zero-tolerance policy.  He gambled on baseball.  Pete was my baseball hero, and I defended him to anyone who'd listen...until, that is, I learned that he had lied about what he'd done.  And like McGuire, he only really fessed up when there was something to gain from it, or so he thought.

Perhaps we'll see a zero-tolerance policy regarding performance enhancing substances someday.  I hope so.  But I also hope that folks get away from the notion that what we need are more cheaters, so that cheating doesn't carry such a stigma.

+1 to Liver.

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Being a cheater should be only part of why he is not suited to be a hitting coach and or HOF inductee.  Why would  you want a 1 dimensional mediocre hitter who only put up HR once he started cheating?  His lifetime average is .268 that is not very good couple that with a .394 OBP what help does he have to offer?  McGuire was an average ball player.

Let's see...

-- In 1987, he was Rookie of the Year, hitting 49 home runs.

-- His senior year in college at USC, he lead the nation in home runs.

-- He started using steriods in 1989/90, well after those seasons.

That's hardly being an average ball player.  The real facts are tripping you up here.

Gary,

I appreciate your vigilance in the defense of your friends, however, McGuire's career was not great, and I am not tripping on facts.  McGuire had a stellar rookie season to be sure, however his average went from 1987 .289 to 1988 .260, 1989 .231, 1990 (juice?).235, to 1991(juice?) .201.  If that is not lack luster, please tell me what is? He did have a just above league average OBP but only just above.  Average is not HOF.  

McGuire could have been a great player, his body would not let it be so.  McGuire used an ILLEGAL DRUG and in such his career is nothing but ill-gotten gain.

McGuire is a narcissist, he is insincere and a total failure as a person.  Why?  Lack of accountability.  Even now he admits to some of it, not all of it, before he would admit to nothing and claimed Canseco is lying. Today Canseco has more credibility than McGuire, more the Selig, more than Bonds, Sosa and Palmero.  Canseco I believe, he has been proven by the leaks from MLB.

MLB should get the list out and make it public and get in front of it.  Lets move on.

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DennisMcFeely
Today Canseco has more credibility than McGuire, more the Selig, more than Bonds, Sosa and Palmero.  

Sad but true.  And let's not forget the Rocket.

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some of these guys with inflated 'juiced' numbers will get in the HOF but we are keeping Pete Rose one of the best players (I said player) of all time out?

1). Pete Rose openingly gambled on games that he played in.

2). He ended the career of a very popular player in catcher Ray Fosse by purposely taking out his knee in a play at home.

What hurt Pete Rose is that he didn't have enough other players doing the bad things he was doing.  Ask people in the know, and they will tell you that what Rose maliciously and purposely did to Fosse to end his career is why the HOF voters didn't let the  gambling issue go away.

Rose had nothing to do with Fosse's career ending.  Fosse's injury during the collision was his shoulder, not his knee.  Fosse's career ending neck injury was caused stopping a Reggie Jackson fight.

That's incorrect. I also know Ray Fosse, as well.

I'm not just defending some friends. No manager has ever gone against a player about steriods. None of them. It's not their job to run tests, give out punishment, etc. None of them have ever done any of that, nor should they.  

Tony is doing a lot to help Mark get his act together. The real problem is scumbags popping off about the situation when they have no fricking idea wtf has transpired.

With that, I'm going to bow out of this discussion.

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Gary, I think it's admirable that you stick up for your friend.  But I also think it's woefully naive to believe he (LaRussa) was oblivious to the cheating.  For what it's worth, I don't think LaRussa feels it's cheating, or maybe even that cheating is bad.  I suspect that he shares the same sentiment as you: that if enough folks are doing the wrong thing, that perhaps it isn't that terribly wrong.

I choose to view steroid use as cheating, and unacceptable.  I don't cheat, and I don't like folks who do.  I think they're scumbags, along with those who enable them (LaRussa) and those who profit from it.

Like River19, I was in a position when my playing career ended, to go down the performance enhancement path.  I was a five-tool player, but none of those tools had the shine and marketability of the (eventual record-setting) position player in front of me on the depth chart.  I didn't decide to not do steroids because there wasn't a wave of similar behavior making it seem less sinful, I chose to fade gracefully into athletic insignificance because the alternative was plain wrong.

And again to my original point, Pete Rose isn't in the Hall because he did the one thing that carries an absolute zero-tolerance policy.  He gambled on baseball.  Pete was my baseball hero, and I defended him to anyone who'd listen...until, that is, I learned that he had lied about what he'd done.  And like McGuire, he only really fessed up when there was something to gain from it, or so he thought.

Perhaps we'll see a zero-tolerance policy regarding performance enhancing substances someday.  I hope so.  But I also hope that folks get away from the notion that what we need are more cheaters, so that cheating doesn't carry such a stigma.

Got to address this, now that I saw it:

"I don't think LaRussa feels it's cheating, or maybe even that cheating is bad. I suspect that he shares the same sentiment as you:that if enough folks are doing the wrong thing, that perhaps it isn't that terribly wrong."

I never said that, nor has Tony or anyone else.

Get a grip. Rose got dealt with because it was something the Commissioner and MLB   could deal with, and it wasn't as wide spread. Never said he wasn't wrong. Never said Mac wasn't wrong. The both are.

And Rose's manager had nothing to do with dealing with the problem. You want to call him a scumbag too?

If you have been following the story, Mac has said he does not expect to make the HOF. He's right, and he doesn't deserve to.

But he is coming clean, has said what he did was wrong, and is sorry for doing so.   He's ready to move on with his life, and his old manager is trying his best to help. It's all good.

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