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fuess

Marcellus Shale

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Don Steese

Jeff,

Good point on our corporate income tax being the highest of all the gas producing states. Easy for those of us in favor of a severence tax to forget stuff like that. We need to be reminded.

As to bloated government spending all the tax money they can get their hands on, you're probably right about that too. It's just a question of how bloated is bloated?  There are those who think the government should do almost nothing and those who think it should do almost everything and then there are those of us who come down somewhere in the middle.

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Kansas Big Dog
Here in Louisiana, a good portion of the southern part of the state is dying because of coastal erosion caused by nearly a century of drilling and pushing canals through the marsh.  

Dave,

I heard a story the other day that proposed that the major reason for the coastal problems in LA is the dams that were built on the Missouri River in SD, ND and MT that trap all the sediment (billions of tons a year) that previously flowed to the seas and was deposited along the coast of LA.  First time I had heard of that theory.

Of course, it is common knowledge that the dead zone along the coast where the Mississippi empties is caused by all the nitrogen washed out of agricultural fields and my neighbors yards. :D

KBD

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Bob Frankenfield

Bob

You and Joe are welcome to come here any time you wish, in the last month I have found more cover than I could hunt in 3 years. So if it gets real bad, back your bags,steal Riley and come on up. I would say bring Mark along, but I have a hard time finding enough Guinness for my self. There is no way I could find enough for the two of us.

Do I have to bring Joe?

Ok guys, in your opinion on gas fracking just consider one aspect;  water use.  I've looked at numerous well sites.  Each site is permitted to use "FOUR MILLION GALLONS OF WATER PER DAY!.  Read that again.  Four million gallons PER DAY PER SITE!  Just one well pad.  Where the phuck you think that water is coming from and where is it going to?

It's not like the old vertical gas well anymore.

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ANF grousin

Bob, not sure where you get your information from, but this is from PSU and their work with shale wells

Water use

A well can use that much(and more) within the week it takes to complete the fracking.  The average used is 3.3 M gallons.

If you read the article, the biggest user is power generation which uses 70% of the water, drilling comes in at 13% of the use.

Look at the chart at the bottom of the report to see where shale wells rank with the other comsumptive uses of water.

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L. Gallagher

Bob, I've been told that the 3 to 5 million gallons used to frack a deep well is no more than your average 18 hole golf course uses in a day's irrigation.

Of course, golf courses, at least in the opinion of some of us, have their issues, too....LOL

I think water use is a far bigger issue out west in the dry states than it is here, although there are concerns here, too.

Don, your post was very good. I agree completely with your views. There's a number of good and bad things about this, as well as a whole lot of unknowns.

I don't suppose anyone knows if the extraction tax or whatever it is applies to Michigan? If so, I've never heard of it here.

Kansas, I don't think any of us are against natural gas wells, what worries us is the new type of natural gas well that is appearing on the landscape. Shallow wells are very common in most states, but does Kansas and Texas have the deep wells?

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fuess
Bob

You and Joe are welcome to come here any time you wish, in the last month I have found more cover than I could hunt in 3 years. So if it gets real bad, back your bags,steal Riley and come on up. I would say bring Mark along, but I have a hard time finding enough Guinness for my self. There is no way I could find enough for the two of us.

Do I have to bring Joe?

Ok guys, in your opinion on gas fracking just consider one aspect;  water use.  I've looked at numerous well sites.  Each site is permitted to use "FOUR MILLION GALLONS OF WATER PER DAY!.  Read that again.  Four million gallons PER DAY PER SITE!  Just one well pad.  Where the phuck you think that water is coming from and where is it going to?

It's not like the old vertical gas well anymore.

If i bring my own/(and enough for others) can I tag along??

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fuess

On a serious note, here are few things that have happened to us so far, as landowners in the heart of this process.

1- we have gotten 3 letters from companies asking to either put in a pond, or run a water line across our property.  Both are very attractive ($$$$), and we have to decide if to accept an option, or decline.  The alternatives are the water trucks running around on our roads, on a larger scale.

2- we get investors writing us monthly offering substantial $$$.  They are willing to pay a lump sum up front for a ownership in the future value of the royalties.

3- As we get ready to renogiate our lease, we get almost weekly letters as to other offers from competitors.

All this has happened prior to any real issues other than some seismac testing in the area.

As a landowner/visitor, I am sensitive to the permanent residents, and their concerns with daily life, that I dont have to live with.  BUT I am fascinated with all the business related issues, scope of work, and employemnt opportunites that are created by this process.  In troubling economic times, I think it is healthy to have these folks working on this process, I JUST HOPE IT GETS DONE RIGHT!

And i am too dumb to know if it is or is not, but this post and the replies have helped!

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Dave Gowdey
Here in Louisiana, a good portion of the southern part of the state is dying because of coastal erosion caused by nearly a century of drilling and pushing canals through the marsh.  

Dave,

I heard a story the other day that proposed that the major reason for the coastal problems in LA is the dams that were built on the Missouri River in SD, ND and MT that trap all the sediment (billions of tons a year) that previously flowed to the seas and was deposited along the coast of LA.  First time I had heard of that theory.

Of course, it is common knowledge that the dead zone along the coast where the Mississippi empties is caused by all the nitrogen washed out of agricultural fields and my neighbors yards. :D

KBD

This is what I've learned since I've been here talking with folks much smarter about this stuff than I.

The sediment that comes down the Mississippi helps create new marsh and keep the salt water out.  It provides a foundation that the marsh grasses and plants can expand into and it helps counteract the effect of waves and mitigate salt water incursion.  While dams on the Missouri might keep some sediment from coming down - it still flows plenty brown when it comes down here.  The problem isn't the sediment load, it's that they have so channeled the Mississippi for flood reasons (and we're seeing the human benefits right now)  that most of the sediment goes straight out the end of the river like a firehose, instead of being distributed through streams and channels into the marsh. So we aren't building as much new marsh, or even maintaining what we have.  

Where the oil and gas industry has done the damage is in cutting thousands of miles of canals through most of the marsh in southern Louisiana.  The way they build the canals is that they dredge a canal and pile the mud on either side of it - like a big ditch.  During low tide, these canals can actually work as dikes- and dams impeding the flow of water.  At the same time, they channel salt water throughout the marsh.  They drastically screw up the way that water flows in the marsh, and water is the lifeblood of the marsh.  

Most of the marsh is conditioned to exist in fresh or brakish water, and when it gets too saline it dies.  When the marsh dies, the grass roots that hold the soil together decompose, and the soil washes out.  What was once marsh turns into open water -which helps further degrade the marsh through wave action and by facilitating the flow of more salt water.  Real Louisianans (I'm not one) can point to miles of open water that were all marsh just ten or twenty years ago.  

Basic equation is kill the marsh, kill Southern Louisiana.  These oil canals are the primary vehicle (there are others) killing the marsh.  The lack of sediment and fresh water are keeping the marshes from being restored and expanded.  Net result, one of the fastest eroding coastlines in the world.

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Dave Gowdey
While it may be possible, I've not heard of any of the natural gas companies doing road repair or reconstruction on public roads  - they pretty much limit themselves to maintaining the vast network of dirt roads they put in.   The damage to the roads are left for the taxpayer to repair.

Might want to check again.  In Pa, any roads they mess up must be restored to what they were before the drilling started.  There are many areas drilling companies went in proactively and rebuilt roads well above specs before their trucks started to roll.  But if the road was a POS to start with, the drilling companies are not required to repair above the original POS the originally encountered.

Also remember, trucks used for drilling operations must abide by all laws regulating the weight of the truck.  They arent coming in with trucks twice the legal limit ripping up the roads.

First point, if you haven't learned this about oil and gas companies yet you soon will - what they are supposed to do and what they actually do are two different things.  Without effective regulations and aggressive regulators - they won't do anything they aren't forced to do.   The question is whether they are really restoring roads, and who determines what the standard for the repair is supposed to be?  If they only have to restore POS roads to POS state -my guess is they would say that all roads were in POS state to begin with.  That's their MO.

Second, any engineer will tell you that it isn't only the weight of the vehicles its also the frequency of heavy vehicles.  Once you start running a lot of heavy trucks over a stretch of road you are taking years off of its life.  Is that being factored into these repairs?

It may be that the companies are better in PA than they are in WY and CO - though since they are largely the same companies it seems unlikely.  It may also be that PA regulators are more diligent and their rules are more strict.  Though some of the PA guys seem to have different experiences with this than you.  

I would say that the only state that seems to be doing this right at this point is NY.  They are smart to wait and make sure they call the shots rather than the companies.

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Bob Frankenfield

A well can use that much(and more) within the week it takes to complete the fracking.  The average used is 3.3 M gallons.

According to the industry guys I've spoke with and personal experience,  the fracking time for 1 well is more on the order of 4 - 8 weeks.  On the well pad by me there will be 8 wells.

I got my info on water usage by reading the "permit sign" posted on the roads into each well pad.

I also noticed the Tioga River being drained down to a trickle.

Things are changing fast in this industry in my area.  While Penn State is doing the best it can it doesn't know what it doesn't know.  NY state has the right idea, study first then approve.  Unfortunately we're the guinea pig for NYS.

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Kansas Big Dog
Here in Louisiana, a good portion of the southern part of the state is dying because of coastal erosion caused by nearly a century of drilling and pushing canals through the marsh.  

Dave,

I heard a story the other day that proposed that the major reason for the coastal problems in LA is the dams that were built on the Missouri River in SD, ND and MT that trap all the sediment (billions of tons a year) that previously flowed to the seas and was deposited along the coast of LA.  First time I had heard of that theory.

Of course, it is common knowledge that the dead zone along the coast where the Mississippi empties is caused by all the nitrogen washed out of agricultural fields and my neighbors yards. :D

KBD

This is what I've learned since I've been here talking with folks much smarter about this stuff than I.

The sediment that comes down the Mississippi helps create new marsh and keep the salt water out.  It provides a foundation that the marsh grasses and plants can expand into and it helps counteract the effect of waves and mitigate salt water incursion.  While dams on the Missouri might keep some sediment from coming down - it still flows plenty brown when it comes down here.  The problem isn't the sediment load, it's that they have so channeled the Mississippi for flood reasons (and we're seeing the human benefits right now)  that most of the sediment goes straight out the end of the river like a firehose, instead of being distributed through streams and channels into the marsh. So we aren't building as much new marsh, or even maintaining what we have.  

Where the oil and gas industry has done the damage is in cutting thousands of miles of canals through most of the marsh in southern Louisiana.  The way they build the canals is that they dredge a canal and pile the mud on either side of it - like a big ditch.  During low tide, these canals can actually work as dikes- and dams impeding the flow of water.  At the same time, they channel salt water throughout the marsh.  They drastically screw up the way that water flows in the marsh, and water is the lifeblood of the marsh.  

Most of the marsh is conditioned to exist in fresh or brakish water, and when it gets too saline it dies.  When the marsh dies, the grass roots that hold the soil together decompose, and the soil washes out.  What was once marsh turns into open water -which helps further degrade the marsh through wave action and by facilitating the flow of more salt water.  Real Louisianans (I'm not one) can point to miles of open water that were all marsh just ten or twenty years ago.  

Basic equation is kill the marsh, kill Southern Louisiana.  These oil canals are the primary vehicle (there are others) killing the marsh.  The lack of sediment and fresh water are keeping the marshes from being restored and expanded.  Net result, one of the fastest eroding coastlines in the world.

Dave,

Thanks for explaining the effects of the canals; does not sound like an environmentally sustainable practice.

KBD

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L. Gallagher

In Michigan groundwater from lakes, streams or rivers can not be used for fracking the deep wells. They have to get their water from a drilled water well. So they drill a well right there on the pad, all the deep wells have them.

Which of course, means nothing, as all the water comes from the same source, but it looks better to the average joe, I guess.

Whereas, the golf courses can and do draw their irrigation water from rivers and streams...and that can have a visible impact, especially during a low water level year, as the past decade or more has been in the Great Lakes.

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fuess

Golf courses are a little different around here.  If we get a low water year, we are limited per day what we can use, and must report via meters and are subject to check, the amount we can use per day.

I dont know if there is a limit for the fracking process if it is a bad year.

Just an FYI.

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GuyO

Linda,

You might want to get your facts straight about average daily water use on a golf course. I maintain a golf course in the mid Atlantic and have never pumped a million gallons in a day!!

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L. Gallagher

Guy0-That's what I was told by geologists from the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality during a public forum on the new natural gas wells in this area last summer with about 200 other people present, and that's what has been widely printed in articles credited to the MDEQ about water use all over the state. They have released those comparisons in numerous FAQ's about water use and fracking released to the public and in several press releases on the wells.

In fact, what they actually said was 3.3 million gallons to five million gallons a day.

I printed that number in several articles about fracking and the concerns about water use over the past two years here, and not one of the 50 golf courses within range of my paper got hold of me to correct that, or show proof of lower amounts of water being used.

So, if that is incorrect, please provide us with documentation.

It would be a relief to many of us to know we're not wasting that much water.

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