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Climate Change


Climate Change  

  1. 1. Climate Change

    • Is human caused.
      Is human caused.
    • Is not human caused; part of the earth's normal climate cycles.
      Is human caused.
    • Is not occurring.
      Is human caused.
    • The Jury is still out (your undecided?)
      Is human caused.
    • Is a left wing conspiracy?
      Is human caused.
    • All science is a left wing conspiracy?
      Is human caused.


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I believe that climate change(warming) is occurring.  I also believe that humankind will not change its behaviors to stop it.

And that's the most accurate take on the situation I've seen so far.

x3

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Brad? With the hongers last tirade , now this?

Are we " open for political business"?

GB--why is it that we can't just have a discussion?

As has been said on other controversies in the past--one doesn't have to 'click'.

I'm not being confrontational--just saying.

Why does something outside of us, have to sink in so deeply and cause offense?

Cause thats life, and what makes us as men, tick

Hmmmm? My thinking on that is a bit different, but that would have to be a face to face over a pint.

:)

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Most of the world says; "Just keep regulating yourselves to death, but keep buying our cheaper products before you go broke (aren't we already?) and BTW, thanks for those 10s of millions of jobs you transferred to us."

I haven't had the chance to travel the world that I'd like to, but have been fortunate to know a number who have--and to have met and had long discussions with people from other developed countries.  

Based on what I know through them, the US really ought to be ashamed.  Most every other developed country IS doing a great deal more than we are.  And they know it.  Some of the things are little things--but they add up.  And in many cases they save $$, which is one thing that really baffles them...given our state of economy, why we don't embrace some of the measures that make economic sense too?

I'm interested in examples of this.

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I believe that climate change(warming) is occurring.  I also believe that humankind will not change its behaviors to stop it.

Can we?  Stop it?

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Most of the world says; "Just keep regulating yourselves to death, but keep buying our cheaper products before you go broke (aren't we already?) and BTW, thanks for those 10s of millions of jobs you transferred to us."

I haven't had the chance to travel the world that I'd like to, but have been fortunate to know a number who have--and to have met and had long discussions with people from other developed countries.  

Based on what I know through them, the US really ought to be ashamed.  Most every other developed country IS doing a great deal more than we are.  And they know it.  Some of the things are little things--but they add up.  And in many cases they save $$, which is one thing that really baffles them...given our state of economy, why we don't embrace some of the measures that make economic sense too?

I'm interested in examples of this.

Yeah, me too.

I am fascinated by what other "developed" nations think we ought to be doing.

Show me one thats democratic and isn't on the verge of bankruptcy, thats who i want to listen to.

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John,

I don't know if this answers your question directly, but Germany for one is way out ahead in terms of solar panel manufacturing and installing and solar energy usage.

Several years back, Germany went on a big solar push, covering countless surfaces in solar panels. The roofs of high-rises, parking garages, old military bases, old mining areas...you name it, covered in solar panels.

Now to put things in perspective, as of 2011, solar provided only 3-percent of Germany's electricity.

But to show how much power that solar can add to the grid -- on midday of Saturday May 26, 2012, solar energy provided over 40% of total electricity consumption in Germany, and 20% for the 24 hour day. (per wikipedia: http://bit.ly/czIoXo ).

Solar has its drawbacks -- like on rainy days and (of course) at night.

But for Germany at least, solar and other renewables are gaining ground and lessening the country's dependence on coal and oil.

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but I would admit our walmart shoppers tend to be much much much fatter  :<img src=:'>

:laugh:  :laugh:   :oh:

Great non sequitur, well played Timmay.

:cool:

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Most of the world says; "Just keep regulating yourselves to death, but keep buying our cheaper products before you go broke (aren't we already?) and BTW, thanks for those 10s of millions of jobs you transferred to us."

I haven't had the chance to travel the world that I'd like to, but have been fortunate to know a number who have--and to have met and had long discussions with people from other developed countries.  

Based on what I know through them, the US really ought to be ashamed.  Most every other developed country IS doing a great deal more than we are.  And they know it.  Some of the things are little things--but they add up.  And in many cases they save $$, which is one thing that really baffles them...given our state of economy, why we don't embrace some of the measures that make economic sense too?

I'm interested in examples of this.

Yeah, me too.

I am fascinated by what other "developed" nations think we ought to be doing.

Show me one thats democratic and isn't on the verge of bankruptcy, thats who i want to listen to.

I travel  a great deal in Asia, designing and making the goods that people in the US buy, and China is WAAAY ahead of the curve.  Yeah, they have been addicted to coal, but that is rapidly changing as they see that pollution is negatively affecting their GDP because of worker sickness.

If you travel in China, for example, you will see that most every building has solar panels on it and most residences heat water with solar.  This mandate actually spiked world aluminum commodities two years a go as China ramped up.  Vehicles have to met stricter fuel mileage requirements. Vehicles are smaller, and many, many people ride bikes.  This is especially evident in the under 30 crowd, who have adopted western lifestyle and attention to health.  China has a long way to go, but they have learned from our mistakes and take action.  Something that we don't seem to be able to do.

As far as solar's limitations, I am not seeing that.  We have two entire communities that I am familiar with here in WA that are totally solar and off the grid.  One is Oil City.  It is where the Hoh River dumps into the Pacific Ocean - and they get 180" of rain a year and it is one of the largest temperate rainforests in the US, if not the world.  The other is Thompson Creek outside of Glacier.  This is on Mt. Baker - the snowiest mountain in the world.  We got 800+ " on Mt Baker last year - that's about 70'.  Both of these communities do quite well but admit that in Jan / Feb they just need to pay a bit of attention to power usage.  And if there are wetter and darker places in the US then I just don't know about them.

More than anything, I think it is just common sense to do what is prudent.  If you are using gobs of energy and don't care about the footprint that you leave then you are as much a slob hunter as the douche who leaves litter in a farmer's field or drives through fences.  IMO, being a conservationist extends to all facets of one's life - not just what one does in the field.

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John,

I don't know if this answers your question directly, but Germany for one is way out ahead in terms of solar panel manufacturing and installing and solar energy usage.

Several years back, Germany went on a big solar push, covering countless surfaces in solar panels. The roofs of high-rises, parking garages, old military bases, old mining areas...you name it, covered in solar panels.

Now to put things in perspective, as of 2011, solar provided only 3-percent of Germany's electricity.

But to show how much power that solar can add to the grid -- on midday of Saturday May 26, 2012, solar energy provided over 40% of total electricity consumption in Germany, and 20% for the 24 hour day. (per wikipedia: http://bit.ly/czIoXo ).

Solar has its drawbacks -- like on rainy days and (of course) at night.

But for Germany at least, solar and other renewables are gaining ground and lessening the country's dependence on coal and oil.

Thanks FG--in principle, solar is the best alternative that I am aware of, but I've been made to understand it is an economic loser and as you pointed out isn't capable of being primary without a better storage scheme.

I've considered it for my place--but not yet.

I must say that I don't trust much that is on Wikipedia, but that isn't to say those numbers aren't right. Big numbers--it seems like I would have heard more of that.

But, I'm just blowing air.

I'm all for eliminating toxins and such, but it needs to be done sensibly with all other factors considered.

I just don't believe for an inch what the global warming crowd is saying. It doesn't make sense from lots of angles. Its like othe 'sky is falling' bugle calls. We've gone from maybe a short term 1 degree difference (maybe) to global catastrophe.

That is way out of the park even with the worse possible scenario. I haven't seen science or an example that remotely holds water. I honestly would like to know the truth. I value truth and have no skin in the game other than that.

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Most of the world says; "Just keep regulating yourselves to death, but keep buying our cheaper products before you go broke (aren't we already?) and BTW, thanks for those 10s of millions of jobs you transferred to us."

I haven't had the chance to travel the world that I'd like to, but have been fortunate to know a number who have--and to have met and had long discussions with people from other developed countries.  

Based on what I know through them, the US really ought to be ashamed.  Most every other developed country IS doing a great deal more than we are.  And they know it.  Some of the things are little things--but they add up.  And in many cases they save $$, which is one thing that really baffles them...given our state of economy, why we don't embrace some of the measures that make economic sense too?

I'm interested in examples of this.

Yeah, me too.

I am fascinated by what other "developed" nations think we ought to be doing.

Show me one thats democratic and isn't on the verge of bankruptcy, thats who i want to listen to.

I travel  a great deal in Asia, designing and making the goods that people in the US buy, and China is WAAAY ahead of the curve.  Yeah, they have been addicted to coal, but that is rapidly changing as they see that pollution is negatively affecting their GDP because of worker sickness.

If you travel in China, for example, you will see that most every building has solar panels on it and most residences heat water with solar.  This mandate actually spiked world aluminum commodities two years a go as China ramped up.  Vehicles have to met stricter fuel mileage requirements. Vehicles are smaller, and many, many people ride bikes.  This is especially evident in the under 30 crowd, who have adopted western lifestyle and attention to health.  China has a long way to go, but they have learned from our mistakes and take action.  Something that we don't seem to be able to do.

As far as solar's limitations, I am not seeing that.  We have two entire communities that I am familiar with here in WA that are totally solar and off the grid.  One is Oil City.  It is where the Hoh River dumps into the Pacific Ocean - and they get 180" of rain a year and it is one of the largest temperate rainforests in the US, if not the world.  The other is Thompson Creek outside of Glacier.  This is on Mt. Baker - the snowiest mountain in the world.  We got 800+ " on Mt Baker last year - that's about 70'.  Both of these communities do quite well but admit that in Jan / Feb they just need to pay a bit of attention to power usage.  And if there are wetter and darker places in the US then I just don't know about them.

More than anything, I think it is just common sense to do what is prudent.  If you are using gobs of energy and don't care about the footprint that you leave then you are as much a slob hunter as the douche who leaves litter in a farmer's field or drives through fences.  IMO, being a conservationist extends to all facets of one's life - not just what one does in the field.

Marty--I'd like to hear more about Oil City and its economics and storage scheme. Do they dump to the grid and then take back? You say they are 'off the grid'.

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I travel  a great deal in Asia, designing and making the goods that people in the US buy, and China is WAAAY ahead of the curve.  Yeah, they have been addicted to coal, but that is rapidly changing as they see that pollution is negatively affecting their GDP because of worker sickness.

If you travel in China, for example, you will see that most every building has solar panels on it and most residences heat water with solar.  This mandate actually spiked world aluminum commodities two years a go as China ramped up.  Vehicles have to met stricter fuel mileage requirements. Vehicles are smaller, and many, many people ride bikes.  This is especially evident in the under 30 crowd, who have adopted western lifestyle and attention to health.  China has a long way to go, but they have learned from our mistakes and take action.  Something that we don't seem to be able to do.

Marty, I spent a month traveling the large and small places of China (not enough time) last year, and I have seen what you are speaking about. Thanks for writing this because if I did it , people may/would say that I am biased.

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I travel  a great deal in Asia, designing and making the goods that people in the US buy, and China is WAAAY ahead of the curve.  Yeah, they have been addicted to coal, but that is rapidly changing as they see that pollution is negatively affecting their GDP because of worker sickness.

If you travel in China, for example, you will see that most every building has solar panels on it and most residences heat water with solar.  This mandate actually spiked world aluminum commodities two years a go as China ramped up.  Vehicles have to met stricter fuel mileage requirements. Vehicles are smaller, and many, many people ride bikes.  This is especially evident in the under 30 crowd, who have adopted western lifestyle and attention to health.  China has a long way to go, but they have learned from our mistakes and take action.  Something that we don't seem to be able to do.

As far as solar's limitations, I am not seeing that.  We have two entire communities that I am familiar with here in WA that are totally solar and off the grid.  One is Oil City.  It is where the Hoh River dumps into the Pacific Ocean - and they get 180" of rain a year and it is one of the largest temperate rainforests in the US, if not the world.  The other is Thompson Creek outside of Glacier.  This is on Mt. Baker - the snowiest mountain in the world.  We got 800+ " on Mt Baker last year - that's about 70'.  Both of these communities do quite well but admit that in Jan / Feb they just need to pay a bit of attention to power usage.  And if there are wetter and darker places in the US then I just don't know about them.

More than anything, I think it is just common sense to do what is prudent.  If you are using gobs of energy and don't care about the footprint that you leave then you are as much a slob hunter as the douche who leaves litter in a farmer's field or drives through fences.  IMO, being a conservationist extends to all facets of one's life - not just what one does in the field.

WOW!  Just when I think that this thread has gotten so totally and utterly depressing that I really can't possibly stand to dial in even one more time  and......POOF!! There ya' go.   Mucho agreement from where I sit.  But I'll not go beyond that, for now anyway, from fear of clouding an incredibly important message.

Thanks so much for shining a ray of light, Marty G.

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I am about halfway through building a new house, completely solar powered. I am connected to the grid but I expect my meter to run backwards, during the daytime (it's sunny all the time here). I'll never pay another utility bill.

Various incentives and tax breaks lowered the installation costs about 50% but still, the payback time is long - I'll be as old as Kadehippy before I break even. :D

But it isn't about breaking even or never having to pay utility bills again. I know that making my energy footprint as small as possible will not make any difference with regard to climate change in my lifetime. But it makes me feel good, nevertheless.

It is, after all, the small actions of the individual, multiplied by millions and millions of us, that do matter. It is the willingness to do what we can to make a difference that matters. That is the moral outlook that I have taught my children; you do what is right to do, not because you hope to be rewarded by financial gain or community praise, but simply because it's the right thing to do.

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I am about halfway through building a new house, completely solar powered. I am connected to the grid but I expect my meter to run backwards, during the daytime (it's sunny all the time here). I'll never pay another utility bill.

Various incentives and tax breaks lowered the installation costs about 50% but still, the payback time is long - I'll be as old as Kadehippy before I break even. :D

But it isn't about breaking even or never having to pay utility bills again. I know that making my energy footprint as small as possible will not make any difference with regard to climate change in my lifetime. But it makes me feel good, nevertheless.

It is, after all, the small actions of the individual, multiplied by millions and millions of us, that do matter. It is the willingness to do what we can to make a difference that matters. That is the moral outlook that I have taught my children; you do what is right to do, not because you hope to be rewarded by financial gain or community praise, but simply because it's the right thing to do.

Effin' awesome Roy!  well said!

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I am about halfway through building a new house, completely solar powered. I am connected to the grid but I expect my meter to run backwards, during the daytime (it's sunny all the time here). I'll never pay another utility bill.

Various incentives and tax breaks lowered the installation costs about 50% but still, the payback time is long - I'll be as old as Kadehippy before I break even. :D

But it isn't about breaking even or never having to pay utility bills again. I know that making my energy footprint as small as possible will not make any difference with regard to climate change in my lifetime. But it makes me feel good, nevertheless.

It is, after all, the small actions of the individual, multiplied by millions and millions of us, that do matter. It is the willingness to do what we can to make a difference that matters. That is the moral outlook that I have taught my children; you do what is right to do, not because you hope to be rewarded by financial gain or community praise, but simply because it's the right thing to do.

Effin' awesome Roy!  well said!

x a billion

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