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Climate Change


Climate Change  

  1. 1. Climate Change

    • Is human caused.
      Is human caused.
    • Is not human caused; part of the earth's normal climate cycles.
      Is human caused.
    • Is not occurring.
      Is human caused.
    • The Jury is still out (your undecided?)
      Is human caused.
    • Is a left wing conspiracy?
      Is human caused.
    • All science is a left wing conspiracy?
      Is human caused.


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Cooter Brown

The simple fact is that cheap energy is what created modern society.  Cheap energy is what feeds the planet's population. It's what allows the growth of enough food to nourish people in countries that can't produce enough food to feed themselves.  It's what allows us to build the wealth to create not only an abundance of consumer goods but to research and build life saving and life enhancing technologies.

In short, cheap energy is what has allowed humans to dramatically increase life span and quality of life for the great majority of the people on the planet.  When man learned to harness the energy in FF, it quickly supplanted water, wind and steam, and led to the most rapid advancement of the human condition in history.

Right now, and for the foreseeable future, fossil fuels are the cheapest way to produce energy.  Use of fossil fuels is going to be around for a while.  We'd best learn to use them as efficiently as possible.

I find most of these arguments about climate change to be reductionist and reactionary and guided more by ideology than clear thinking.  If you're skeptical that man's activities have a quantitative effect on earth's climate, you're a selfish SOB, a right wing ideologue who cares more about corporations than you do about our beautiful planet.  If you think man is driving climate change, you're a commie who wants to drive down America.

In this thread we've even seen nudging at religion.

Of course there ARE agendas on both sides, both political and economic, but that's true for most everything important.

As far as my feelings on it, I'm skeptical that what we're doing will have a big effect in geologic time--so far, man's entire history is only a blip in geologic time.  In terms of time, it's not an either/or situation.  We've got time to learn to use the resources we have now more efficiently, and to use those resources to create the wealth it's going to take to develop the next revolution in energy creation.  Whoever figures that out is gonna run the place.

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Yes, cheap energy is a huge economic engine.

And with that in mind, it's worth noting that all the hydrofracking that's going on now across the U.S. is creating vast reserves of natural gas. (I know there's a raging environmental debate about fracking, but I will leave that argument for another day).

All the fracking should help keep natural gas prices low. And low natural gas prices will not provide much incentive for the U.S. to expand use of solar or other renewables.

Right now, home and business owners who heat with fuel oil must be much more likely to switch over to cheaper natural gas than re-fit for solar or wind.

Whether that's good or bad, I'll let someone else hash it out.

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Who is this Cooter Brown, and why is he trying to make sense?? :<img src=:'>  :D

Yea, he's trying to spoil a good show with clear thinking and logic...

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There is a whole middle east in our western states

Those estimates take that into account.  How much time will that buy when India and china have a few more years to grow and their per capita rates of energy usage rival ours, vs what is the cost to those areas to extract it?  Some would argue it is worth it, many would not.

I've heard we have even more natural gas readily available and we could convert most everything in 4 years and be off oil ? ? ?

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Some would probably think I care little about the environment.  

I'm just saying take full advantage now of available resourses.  There's no big rush to alternative energy.  Tecnology will, in time, find a senseable economic way to do so, but right now we are cutting our own throats.

BTW, 95% of everything I eat or drink is organic and grass fed beef.  

I don't care to ingest, hormones, antibiotics, pesticides and chemical fertilizers.  Our health system has been seeing the  results of that for some time and it's getting worse.

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As far as my feelings on it, I'm skeptical that what we're doing will have a big effect in geologic time--so far, man's entire history is only a blip in geologic time.  In terms of time, it's not an either/or situation.  We've got time to learn to use the resources we have now more efficiently, and to use those resources to create the wealth it's going to take to develop the next revolution in energy creation.  Whoever figures that out is gonna run the place.

Yes Mr. Cooter is the "Star" of the thread in my opinion.  I'm thinking he got me thinking.

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Cheap energy is what provides the quality of lives. Take that out of the equation and there will be a world wide depression.

Imagine, not being able to afford to drive anywhere, or keep your home warm.

I fear the only way out of this is if 75% of the world population dies off.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2011....ml?_r=1

http://www.aboutmyplanet.com/science-technology/solar-panel-toxins/

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110831115918.htm

If you felt good about solar panels don't read the above articles.  I wouldn't want to ruin your day.

Downsides of solar panels

-expensive

-subsidized by gov't

-pollution from chemicals in production

-pollution from lead batteries

-don't produce power without light(not a solution for all areas)

-life expectancy of 20-40 years

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I haven't read this whole thread so pardon any unintentional redundancy or flat-out ignorance but until someone finally figures out how to successfully employ nuclear fusion on a large scale we'll just continue to kick the energy can down the road.  Truly the holy grail of sustainable clean energy.
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Do a search on how many Nucs had to have units shut down due to shortage of water. At the most basic level solar energy is the best choice. It's only getting a true grip on harnessing it. Technology, research, development , implimentation.

 Solar, wind, tidal energy are there, were always there, and will continue to be there. Many of our present day power sources get the job done but at a high long term cost and a high risk factor. Some practices pose threats that aren't a matter of "If" but rather only "When".

  Cooters last post was very good, but it brought to my mind that we jumped on the fossil fuel bandwagon with both feet and reaped great benifits. To be sure and it catapulted mankind into a long period of very fast cultural development. But as perhaps we benifitted greatly from this exploitation I'm kinda thinking that we shoved aside the best long term effects and results of this exploitation. Have we developed a sense of self discipline in this regard?

   Water is as basic a need for life as exists on this world as I tried to point out. Protecting this should be paramount. I was told that technological Nations have no propblem filtering, desalinating sea water. Water is no problem. Well then I'd like to see the petrolium companies filter the complete supply of waste water from fracking operations. I won't even go into risk and damage control and response and responsibility and full liability should a large scale "Occurance" happen. Just adequately filter the recovered waste. Call me a wacko, greenie, liberal but it just seems like a good idea at the minimum. For me it seems the need and desire and lure of easy energy outstripped wisdom and discipline. Yep we have the need. For better or worse we self created much of this percieved need. However the way I see the situation it only highlights the pressing need for development and promotion of alternative, renewable sources.

    Boy things are drifting off of Climate change, sorry.

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I haven't read this whole thread so pardon any unintentional redundancy or flat-out ignorance but until someone finally figures out how to successfully employ nuclear fusion on a large scale we'll just continue to kick the energy can down the road.  Truly the holy grail of sustainable clean energy.

++1 Forgot about that, but.............again,the greenies.

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Call me a wacko, greenie, liberal

ooh ooh pick me.... I've called you way worse than that.......

you realize of course that the easy solution would be to eliminate all the major metropolitan cities on both coasts, Chicago, Madison and a few others..... foot print goes way down... plenty of energy for the rest of the population... and less concern about agro farming, and the environmental impact of that.....   but I'm sure you won't want to discuss city over population

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