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L. Gallagher

MI Gov proposes new license fees

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Chris Raymond
I think one of the Fritz's points that is not being discussed is that some river mouths need dredging simply for the fish, many now self-propagating, to return to the river and procreate.  Now that self-propagating anadromous fish populations have been established it would sure be a shame to lose them.  In my mind this is not a transportation issue falling under the management of ACoE, but a state wildlife issue under the domain of the MIDNR.

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Steelheadfred

Here is the copy of the proposed Budget that I received, hope it comes out, I converted it from PDF.

Natural Resources Dept is tasked with 1/3 of new revenues going to harbor dredging? This should be an issue for the transportation dept. I would think. It is not covered by the small contribution from the general fund.

Less than 1/2 the new funds being spent on "Outdoor Recreation"? Bike paths? Launch ramps? Picnic areas? Be interesting to understand this piece.

Harbor dredging should be 100% Army Corps of Engineers. Always was before.

The reason harbors need dredging is for BUSINESS, fishing boats hardly ever are affected by harbors full of sand, its commercial shipping that needs this.

Why not have SHIPPERS/BUSINESS benefiting from good harbors pay anything the Corps of Engineers dont do?

This Republican Governor is in too big of a hurry to make Joe Lunchbox pay for everything.

Dick,

Why depend on the federal govt for anything? They are supposed to manage your federal forests? How good a job have they done in that arena in the last XX number of years?

It goes beyond dredging for commercial vessels, it goes to the heart of migratory fish, not just salmon, steelhead, brows, and walleyes, but the other fish that migrate, the suckers and such that are a vital aspect of the eco-system.

Hunting and fishing in our state in terms of license fees is the best bargain going, it's too cheap. Why allow our resources to degrade the way the federal forests have in pushing the responsibility onto someone else? Let's take control.

I look at the license fee like I look at Pure Michigan, a simple return on investment, look I don't like the gas tax, but in order to support commerce, tourism, create jobs, our roads have to get fixed. If we can make these changes we need so bad, the whole economy will increase and rise, without it, we will look like the Federal Forests 8 miles East of your home, old and decaying and void of life.

http://www.gophouse.com/readarticle.asp?id=9647&District=105

West Grand Traverse Bay

Traverse-city-grandville-597x250.jpg

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rosies dad

I agree that we cant have a river mouth to be 4" deep and blocking fish migration.

I seriously doubt many rivers have blockages affecting fish migration.

Are there "boat ramps" that need sand removal? maybe, but look a little further and get the big picture before we hand the DNR taxpayers or license buyers money to fix something.

Then again, if its salmon and migratory steelhead, maybe there ought to be a special stamp to have the users (boaters) pay.. or even a pass to use affected boat ramps costing $xxx.

Dont mingle deer hunters dollars with boat ramp dredging though.

Seperately, this Governor may be too quick to raise taxes. If you are over 65, the State took away a deduction. (more money then going to the coffers). They are now taxing retirees income, (got more money) These are but two, and arent being figured into the mix before the Gov is grabbing for more.

He needs to slow down on raising taxes..... once you lose a deduction or get a new tax, its hard to ever go back.

Proceed with caution grasshopper, our Government spends every dime it can get their hands on (usually more).

Add: Fritz, Lake Michigan is down as shown in those pictures with the docks. Most harbors and most boat docks have the same issue, digging out sand isnt going to help (or would be almost cost prohibitive). I doubt there is a practical fix unless you can make Lake Michigan water levels rise.

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Chris Raymond
One of the bright spots, if there are any, with the lower water is that it should give a better position from which to fight the issue of water diversion from the region.  That is if logic comes into play vs. straight politics.

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Steelheadfred

Dick,

Dredging harbors for fish migration is a bet that the low water is cyclical, as Linda mentions it's been going on for years in some places very quietly (mouth of the platte). I've seen some proposals for more than a bandaid.

I can tell you low water is impacting our naturalized reproducing rivers significantly, run timing is changing over night. The mouth of the Betsie, PM, Little Manistee, Jordan, Boyne, all have inches of water at the mouth, fish are waiting for the right wind to blow a couple more inches in, and or high water periods that offer dirty water to navigate the low water at the mouths.

Those rivers mentioned our the heart beat of our naturalized reproducing salmon, steelhead streams, rivers that are self sustaining and don't cost a dime from the hatchery system.

As far as more taxes, hey I don't like taxes as much as the next guy. But Snyder is simply taxing pensions that never had taxes paid on them in the first place.

A retired teach buddy of mine, he bitches non stop about his retirement draw being taxed, when in reality he never paid taxes on it in the first place, there is no free lunch outside of welfare. Why should those funds not be taxed? It originally was put in place because of the snow birds going to no state tax Florida.

I can put away tax free each year, $16,500 in a simple IRA, I fully expect to be taxed on that money when and if I'm ever able to retire.

Let's take control of our state and be sufficient without the aid of the losers in Washington, I believe these are investments with ROI. It will cost far more to fix/re-create a fishery that has been developing for pushing 125 years (steelhead) and Salmon since 64 than it is to currently maintain it.

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Steelheadfred
One of the bright spots, if there are any, with the lower water is that it should give a better position from which to fight the issue of water diversion from the region.  That is if logic comes into play vs. straight politics.

Waterfowl nesting areas will increase significantly also.

Thanks Fritz

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Chukarman

... if logic comes into play vs. straight politics.

Logic has NEVER trumped politics in California, where water rights have been the core political issue for over 100 years.

I wouldn't get my hopes up.

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rosies dad

Dick,

Dredging harbors for fish migration is a bet that the low water is cyclical, as Linda mentions it's been going on for years in some places very quietly (mouth of the platte). I've seen some proposals for more than a bandaid.

I can tell you low water is impacting our naturalized reproducing rivers significantly, run timing is changing over night. The mouth of the Betsie, PM, Little Manistee, Jordan, Boyne, all have inches of water at the mouth, fish are waiting for the right wind to blow a couple more inches in, and or high water periods that offer dirty water to navigate the low water at the mouths.

Those rivers mentioned our the heart beat of our naturalized reproducing salmon, steelhead streams, rivers that are self sustaining and don't cost a dime from the hatchery system.

As far as more taxes, hey I don't like taxes as much as the next guy. But Snyder is simply taxing pensions that never had taxes paid on them in the first place.

A retired teach buddy of mine, he bitches non stop about his retirement draw being taxed, when in reality he never paid taxes on it in the first place, there is no free lunch outside of welfare. Why should those funds not be taxed? It originally was put in place because of the snow birds going to no state tax Florida.

I can put away tax free each year, $16,500 in a simple IRA, I fully expect to be taxed on that money when and if I'm ever able to retire.

Let's take control of our state and be sufficient without the aid of the losers in Washington, I believe these are investments with ROI. It will cost far more to fix/re-create a fishery that has been developing for pushing 125 years (steelhead) and Salmon since 64 than it is to currently maintain it.

You just cant dredge a channel upriver from river mouth to  spawning beds. I am sorry if a drought changes the equation but this too shall pass.

Im saying, spend money SMART, not just to do something that (if next year or two when levels go up in Lake Mi) is a complete waste.

Also, saying the Governor needs to look at the bottom line, and not keep turning on taxes before he knows what the bottom line is. He just seems to be in WAY too big of a hurry to create MONEY in the coffers to FIX everything.

The Gov said the Democrats drove Business out of michigan, (tax wise) but (if he gives business tax cuts) all its going to do is shift the tax to somebody else. (guess who that is?)

Well, now WE know.

By the way, no way will business flock back here. We already have tax free industrial zones around, and they sit empty or near so.

By the way, I voted for him. Now he just sounds like what he campaigned against, TAX AND SPEND. Not for cutting spending like I heard his Party was about.

Non homestead Property taxes will be the first to get WAY out of hand. Property taxes for all are going to be way out of line (compared to fair market value).

Workers will sell out and move to the sunbelt for fair taxes at the prevailing wage. I fear he will resort to relaxing laws to favor (Illegal Immigrants) because he will claim business cant find willing workers.

Retirees for the most part are claiming residence in Sunbelt States, (6mo+1day) just for the reasons mentioned.

I predict Governor Snyder will be a one hit wonder (unless he tunes in to reality AND common sense)

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Steelheadfred

Dick,

I don't want to turn this Political, Brad will deep six a good thread.

I do want to address the following:

You just cant dredge a channel upriver from river mouth to  spawning beds. I am sorry if a drought changes the equation but this too shall pass.

We don't need a "channel" to the spawning beds, we need a where the rivers enter the drowned river mouth lakes.

Up stream is fine, plenty of water, we had a drought this summer but in reality we've had very good water in our rivers during migration time the last two years. Far better than 10/11 years.

The water has recessed away from the actual river mouth where it is now exposed sand, just upstream from the river mouths (usually a bridge) we have water enough for fish to migrate.

They don't need much, a foot is fine, but four inches won't cut it.

Some history

http://www.mlive.com/outdoor....ve.html

Changing state policy to emphasize sport fishing over commercial fishing also seemed right, according to Tanner, who grew up, and learned to fish, in Bellaire. He espoused the philosophy of “doing the greatest good for the greatest number of people for the longest period of time.”

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Dave Medema

I don't have much to add except the fact that I avoid certain harbors when I'm on my big boat due to shallow harbors and entrances.   The $$$s lost are all local for food, booze, repairs, gifts, ice cream cones, fuel, slip fees, etc.  This is not inconsequential for the locals.  

The offhand comment that the shipping business will simply have to put less product on their cargo holds shows a serious lack of business acumen.

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ANF grousin
I don't have much to add except the fact that I avoid certain harbors when I'm on my big boat due to shallow harbors and entrances.   The $$$s lost are all local for food, booze, repairs, gifts, ice cream cones, fuel, slip fees, etc.  This is not inconsequential for the locals.  

But again I ask, why do you feel the need to rape out of state hunters for a problem they didn't create and use those dollars where they will receive no benefit?

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Chris Raymond
I don't have much to add except the fact that I avoid certain harbors when I'm on my big boat due to shallow harbors and entrances.   The $$$s lost are all local for food, booze, repairs, gifts, ice cream cones, fuel, slip fees, etc.  This is not inconsequential for the locals.  

But again I ask, why do you feel the need to rape out of state hunters for a problem they didn't create and use those dollars where they will receive no benefit?

Why is there in-state vs. out-of-state tuition at universities?  The answers will be the same.

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gonehuntin
I would like to understand what and how much silt/sand is plugging, and if this is in a commercial shipping lane.

Sure if its only for sport fishing, its another matter. DNR and the Municipality should try to agree on a payment.

If its got something to do with Shipping and movement of commercial freight.. Army Corps...

I dont think you should combine the two and say they are the same.

You guys don't understand commercial shipping. The lakes fleets is a mere skeleton of what once was. They HAVE to get down the St. Mary's, St. Claire, and Detroit rivers. They do not have to get into the Saginaw River, into Muskegeon, Saugatuck, Benton Harbor or St. Joe. If the ships can't get in there because of low water, they sure as Hell won't pay to dredge it, there isn't that much profit in a ship load of salt, coal, or stone. They will simply say "Put your docks where we can access them, or we won't come". That simple.

What it WILL do is to significantly raise the cost of Dry Wall, you power, concrete, and road maintenance.

This may not be a reversible phenomena. The Lakes are at their lowest level in recorded history; no matter how much rain we get, I wouldn't count on them coming back. They're like out Federal Government; take out more than you put in and eventually they'll collapse.

If you dredge now, you'll be dredging every year. It's not the mouth's silting in, it's the water running out.

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L. Gallagher

The Governor is now talking about dipping into the state's $15 million "rainy day" fund for dredging.

99% of the dredging needed is intended to benefit recreational boaters and tourists, there hasn't been any mention of anyone else.

Again, commercial shipping, what's left, as gonehuntin said (he's right, there's hardly any compared to 40 years ago) would not be overly assisted by this effort. Nor would the commercial fishers, most of them have boats not a lot larger than the larger recreational boaters. anyway, and can still get around just fine as far as I have heard.

And I think that spawning fish, which I've seen mentioned as benefiting from dredging maybe one time, are way, way down the priority list.

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Lucky Dog
You guys don't understand commercial shipping. The lakes fleets is a mere skeleton of what once was. They HAVE to get down the St. Mary's, St. Claire, and Detroit rivers. They do not have to get into the Saginaw River, into Muskegeon, Saugatuck, Benton Harbor or St. Joe. If the ships can't get in there because of low water, they sure as Hell won't pay to dredge it, there isn't that much profit in a ship load of salt, coal, or stone. They will simply say "Put your docks where we can access them, or we won't come". That simple.

Apparently the Corps disagrees with you.

The Saginaw River and Channel in Saginaw Bay is currently being dredged.

The ships using the Saginaw River have been running partial loads for 15 or so years. The lack of dredging on the Corps part is nothing new, they have been shirking their duties well before the water levels dropped in the lakes.

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