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A Broken Breed


PartridgeCartridge

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terrym,

I've seen your data before, can you provide a citation?  I believe it covers several years to a decade.

We can debate breeding and training and environment all we want but to me the numbers in this chart clearly define a threat to public safety that needs to be addressed.

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Dave, I agree with you generally.  

......

The problem is greatly exacerbated by all the punks who have pits in the city and teach them to be vicious to intimidate all the honest people as they walk them on the sidewalk.  It works on me - I don't like it, but I get the hell out of the way.

I will say hello and be nice to any seemingly friendly pit I meet because they are usually in regular dog mode and I really like dogs, but I don't trust fully them around me or mine (especially including my dog).

The punks and drug dealers also have them to act as pit bulls do act: vicious protective dogs. They are the nr 1 preferred dog for drug dealers.

 They are a big, vicious, mean fighting dog because that is what they have been bred to be.  These dogs were bred to be what they are by people. It is not the dogs' fault, but they are what they are.

 I've dealt with 2 pits who were no problem at all, but I would never have one or trust one. It is, in my view, impossible to "train out" traits that 100s of years of breeding have imprinted.

 That is the sad truth IMHO.

 bobman has the proper solution so far as I am concerned. Pits are a ticking time bomb and no one knows what the timer is set at or what will set it off.

 Damn shame really.

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The only dogs I've ever had that bit people were a springer, a Brittany and a Boykin.

So spaniels are vicious lol

I owned the Brittany when I was in college in Madison wi and all my stereo equipment and a bunch of my other stuff was stacked up by my door when I got home.

There was a blood trail up the steps to the second floor and halfway up the steps there was a chunk of bloody blue jeans and a piece of black skin.  Apparently the burglar decide to go upstairs and open up my bedroom door and she always slept on my bed .

She was hell on pheasants and grouse also,  I guess that's what they mean about versatile dogs lol.

She really was fearless no joke

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The only dogs I've ever had that bit people were a springer, a Brittany and a Boykin.

So spaniels are vicious lol

I owned the Brittany when I was in college in Madison wi and all my stereo equipment and a bunch of my other stuff was stacked up by my door when I got home.

There was a blood trail up the steps to the second floor and halfway up the steps there was a chunk of bloody blue jeans and a piece of black skin.  Apparently the burglar decide to go upstairs and open up my bedroom door and she always slept on my bed .

She was hell on pheasants and grouse also,  I guess that's what they mean about versatile dogs lol.

She really was fearless no joke

My Brittany would drive the getaway car if my home was robbed. He thinks the entire human race is here just to love him and rub his belly. Does Garmin make an eCollar with spikes ( on the outside) on it?

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I got treed by a PB while walking to class on college.  It had been in a "dog fight" prior and had a bloody hunk of flesh hanging down off of it's neck.  It was running at large.  I saw it from about 40 yards, it started growling and charged.  Had to jump up on someone pickup parked along side the sidewalk I was on.  The dog was relentless trying to get to me and the other person that sought shelter on top of the cab of the truck.  Kept knocking it back with the back pack filled with books.  It was the first PB I ever encountered and wish it was my last.

I agree with PC.

PC, wishing your friend all the best in his recover.

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Pit bulls are here to stay.  They are the ubiquitous world dog breed.  Only hope to remedy the situation is to incentivize out-cross breeding for selective non-aggression on an enormous scale.  In other words not happening.

On the brighter side, they've developed such a huge gene pool that in time most of the aggressive tendencies will become diluted.  It's extremely difficult to maintain a specific inherited behavioral trait, good or bad, in a large population.  The trait will naturally "return to the mean" in time, ie average aggression relative to most dogs in general.

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Ticking time bomb it seems.

My neighbor does rescues for Mastiffs.  Big large rather goofy dogs and from my interaction very docile.  He's had 3 over the past 4 years.  They generally have a short life span based on our discussions.  His current one is a 3 years old female and weighs 150 lbs.  That is a lotta dog as they say.

His last Mastiff died of cancer at age 7 I believe.  Anyway, he and his wife were trying to decide whether they wanted to adopt a 5 year old Pit Bull where the owner was leaving the country.  

They decided to introduce the dogs on neutral turf.  Dog park nearby.  Both owners had their dogs with those anti-jump collars/harnesses on.  Mastiff walked up with wagging tail.  Pit Bull lunged right at his throat.  Took all the energy/strength the owner had keep it off the Mastiff that was twice as large.  Anyway, adoption over and my neighbor crossed Pit Bull off the possibility list of dogs he might want to adopt.  What threw him for a loop was it was an instantaneous attack.  He guessed that the his Mastiff entered the forbidden zone.  FWIW, he believe the Pit Bull would have killed his Mastiff because the attack was unexpected and his dog would have had no chance to protect itself.

PS.  FWIW, both of my dogs are somewhat scared of the Mastiffs he has had.  A dog that large can be rather intimidating to say the least.  The fact that his wife who weighs all of 100 lbs routinely takes the dogs out for a walk shows they are well handled and easy to control.

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One of my wifes friends is from England and she had three mastiffs, the large male bit her husbands arm and broke it

The other male snarled at their child and they had it put down.

The female snarled at me and I left and told them I wouldn't ever come back until that dog is gone and I haven't been back.

I like little bird dogs that I think I can win a battle with.

She told me that mastiffs were used to hunt African lions we don't have a season on them in Georgia so I don't need one. They scare me.

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Dakota Dogman

To the original... PC sorry for your friend.  Hoping all heals.

As to why a normal non-gang thug type would like pit bulls... they can be beautiful.  They can have a splendid mix of power & athletic ability.  The body builder / wrestlers of the dog world.

No, I am not defending them.  I don't like them.

As to mastiffs... mixed emotions.  My neighbor in VA had a bull mastiff.  I had 2 go arounds with that one & told the neighbor that next time I was going to make sure there wasn't a 4th time. I don't trust bulls.  The english mastiff's that I have met were of a different mindset... huge (up to 220 lbs) & easy / friendly.  There didn't seem to be an aggressive bone in their body. But that is a pretty small sampling.  Bobman's stories are not happy food for thought.

God Bless,

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Cane Corso, My definition - A pit bull with a thyroid problem on steroids. Actually they are also known as the Italian Mastiff. Corso's or at least their predecessors were originally bred as war dogs in medieval times and their job was indeed killing humans. I've worked around 3 of them and I've got more respect for this breed than any other.  There are others that rank quite close but this one's at the top of my list.

  Some other's are Great Danes (Marmaduke isn't always cuddly and they are plenty formidable) Pit bulls, Bull Mastiff, Akita, Pyrenees, St Bernard,  Neapolitan Mastiff, and Norwegian Elkhound(smallest of the bunch but wicked strong and the little exposure I've had with them fearless)

  I know and agree largely with what most have said but take exception to saying that aggression is "hard wired" in the breed and can never be bred out. Nonsense it's a trait that was bred in and it can be bred out! And further it doesn't take a century of breeding to do it either. That's just not true. There are many pit fighting breeds out there and all were engaged in the same barbaric sport. We people only have to really want to breed an easier, milder temperament. Whether that will ever be done?

   Sorry to hear about your buddy Dave. Both a young cousin and a niece were bitten in the face and required considerable cosmetic surgery. The breeds in question in both of these cases. A Lab and a Basset.

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If one believes that these dogs are predominant in shelters today, and that they are being adopted out in droves, then we should be hearing about even more attacks then we actually do. We are not. So I am quite skeptical about painting an entire breed as vicious. In many states, BSL legislation is being reversed because the stats do not support it.

Seldom does one hear of a forensic analysis after an attack. What prompted the attack? Did the dog have an underlying condition? Was the dog socialized or kept as a pet and ignored.

As I was growing up it used to be german shepherds, dobermans, and rotties would get a bad rap. Today it's pit bulls.

Sorry about your friend. Hope he makes a speedy and total recovery.

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She told me that mastiffs were used to hunt African lions we don't have a season on them in Georgia so I don't need one. They scare me.

Thanks for this Bobman... brought some fun to a tough topic.

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I used to live in Santa Barbara and surfed north of town often.  There was a guy who thought he had the baddest pit on the planet.

It just so happened that this stretch of vacant beach was the place where a lady who owned timber wolves (used in movies) would take her dogs to run.

You guessed it.  One day the baddest got out on the beach with the wolves.  There were pieces of the baddest all over the beach.  That lady was beyond po'd.  "That didn't have to happen, idiot!"

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Virgil Kane

Sadly there was a 5 year old that was killed yesterday by a pit bull in Chicago. Dog got out of a room it was locked in and grabbed the boy by the throat and dragged the boy outside. Neighbors came to help and beat the dog to death with bricks and pipes but it was to late. The boy was rushed to the hospital and pronounced dead upon arriving. News sources say the boy and his family were just visiting thew home because of the holiday.

Virgil

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Bloodhound

I had an English springer when I was 21 (Long time ago) didn't know anything about the breed...just liked the look and had a friend that had one.  I didn't bird hunt then.  But that dog did...I didn't teach him to find and flush game...but he did it anytime we were out.  Later I worked a Bloodhound for my Sheriff's Department...I constantly was arriving on scene and some volunteer would run over to me and tell me that they had been on scene for a couple of hours and they had run their Lab, Aussie, Border Collie, __(you fill in the blank, I heard them all including Boxer and Greyhound)...... to try to find the lost person.  These volunteers were always dedicated folks and worked hard but I never understood why you would use a dog bred to retrieve, herd or anything other than trail people (Mantrailers) for trailing a lost person is beyond me.  If your passion is finding lost people, get a bloodhound, if your passion is birdhunting.......you cannot undo hundreds of years of breeding in the lifespan of one puppy...breeding takes over.  I also worked a German Shepherd with the Bloodhound.  The Shepherd was an extra set of eyes and ears and was focused on my and the Bloodhounds safety as well as apprehension...cause some of the people we trailed were not lost, if you catch my meaning and the Bloodhound is not a protection/apprehension breed...

So as has been stated here many times...The traits bred into dog breeds are generally what we can expect from the dog breeds.  There are a thousand or so (give or take) that discuss the traits/qualities in different bird dog breeds, pointers, flushers, retrievers...the breeders and lines that are best....we all join in there and we talk about how important good breeding is for the traits we want and the traits we don't...but flip the discussion to Pits or Rotts or .....and we have folks who jump up and say its how the dog is raised...not breeding from 6 generations ago......

I wish it were just how the dog is raised...I would go get a pound puppy for $5 and raise him to be a bird finding machine....(said with tongue in cheek)

Sorry I know all this has been stated in one way or another  and it is over simplified but I couldn't stop myself from taking my turn and jumping on my soapbox

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