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CIncinatti Zoo Gorilla Shot...


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Cooter Brown
13 hours ago, Cooter Brown said:

... the abnormal are being normalized and the normal are being marginilized.

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Cooter Brown said:

But I have to say, even here on the UJ this thread {about the gorilla} got more traffic than the Memorial day threads.

Like I said...

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This is one topic that has no right or wrong side.  - kids are born to explore and test limits. I would not prefer a completely obedient and docile child. -I love zoos, but hate to see anima

I think zoos should be redesigned to resemble Roman colliseums  and we should toss repeat felons and illegal immigrants to lions, tigers and crocs.   that would be way more fun than watching

10 hours ago, Brad Eden said:

 Cripes a lot of UJers have expressed they like their dogs or dogs in general better than humans

This is where I fit in .

 

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HAMMER DOG

WOW!! There's a ton of either misinformation or just flat out prejudice against zoos, one or the other but when people say zoos do little for conservation or populations it lets me know they really have done little actual research or spent any time working at one. I have 4 friends that are biologists at the OKC zoo and have spent time volunteering as well along side them and what you see on the outside is the tip of the iceberg compared to the actual workings and research that goes on at a zoo, first off there are thousands of off site hours spent by staff doing field work, probably more than most DNRs do, but you never see it so I guess it doesn't exist. My friend Brett for example has spent the last two months straight doing field work in the SE part of the nation, he is a herpetologist, my friend Dani has spent the last 4 months doing field work in the Gulf Coast area she is a Marine Biologist and my friend Brandon has been working the last year on a breeding program related to of all things Lesser Prairie Chicken, and his wife is a primatologist working on Orangutan breeding but yeah you don't see it but it is there and it is funded by the zoo through admissions, boosters, events and grants.

Next as far as having Harambe in a zoo and the "well he is a wild animal and shouldn't be confined" no he was never a wild animal, Harambe was born in a zoo in Brownsville Texas through a successful breeding program, and most animals in zoos are just that captive bred, these are not the early 20th century where they are going and constantly raiding wild resources for animals. Lastly as far as the zoos enclosure it is estimated for the kid to have made it through the literal maze and obstacle course it had to have taken 12-15 minutes which police are now examining video to see how long the child was unobserved and not even noticed gone, so place the blame on the ignorant, lazy, worthless parent for him getting in not the zoo. Ask yourself this if it was so easy why is this the first time in nearly three decades?

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Interesting period of time we are in when looking at how animals are treated.

 

It's illegal to have cock fights or dog fights, but the UFC (which is really human cock fighting) is extremely popular and accepted. It's horrible that Mike Vick killed a dog, but it's not as much of an issue when numerous other NFL players have killed other human beings.

 

The difference in health care is really crazy. People are willing to pay cash out of their pockets when taking their animals to the vet, but relay on insurance companies to dictate (and limit) their and their families health care.

 

And then things like this, where some people are more concerned about the gorilla than the little boys safety. 

 

Crazy.

 

 

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15 hours ago, bobman said:

there were 69 humans shot in Chicago over Memorial Day weekend, no outage however

Hmm that number seems low, must be some bad shots in that cess pool of a city.

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17 minutes ago, HAMMER DOG said:

MMA is human cock fighting? Seriously, talk about misinformed.¬¬

Sorry, I should have said it's LIKE cockfighting. Only thing different is that they stop the bout before the loser dies. But not always.....

 

I don't see how I have been  "misinformed".

 

And, I didn't say MMA in general, I said UFC in particular......

 

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PoodleHunter

Well lets revisit what I actually said: " On average zoo's do very little for endangered species recovery, compared to other methods."            on average.  

" So there is a fair argument against their 'role' in wildlife conservation."   this is widely discussed among conservation professionals...WIDELY discussed

" I don't mean to imply that zoos have no place in the broad conservation arena...they do."     reread that one.

 

I was generally speaking about the captive animal section of a standard zoo program.  Not their field based research arms.  These are two separate things. I don't mean to discredit the work your friends do.  We are talking about captive animals here.  But numbers are numbers, and ON AVERAGE, if you look nationwide at the number of captive animals in zoos (endangered, threatened, or something similar) and how those animals impact their respective wild counterparts conservation status, the AVERAGE affect is  minimal...compared to other methods.  Zoos have success stories of reintroduction..some very good ones....but they are very few considering the number of animals in captivity. the gorilla in question was born in a zoo, would die in a zoo (of old age hopefully and not by this method), and has not, to my knowledge (i could be wrong), fathered offspring that would be used for silverback reintroduction. Many times captive animals have alot of trouble breeding (ex..panda).  None of that lessens the value of his life. Dont get me wrong about that.  Just that his role at this zoo is similar to many other imperiled species at zoos.

I have read the research on zoo effectiveness.  Most of their tangible credit is from educational programs.  And there are documented success stories.  But captive breeding programs, on average, are not very effective at achieving goals of reintroduction.  

I have dozens of friends who work for state DNRs, university wildlife programs, USFWS, USFS, USGS, and NPS.  Their research, field work, habitat management and restoration efforts, etc., spread the dollar spent much further and have many more tangible benefits.  But, once again, I am not saying zoos have their place...they do.  

I also have friends who have and continue to work at zoos who share my thoughts.   

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Zoos, parades, circus & CLOWNS do nothing for me. 

I think it was rather sad that the Gorilla had to be killed but...that 4 yr old boy was going to die, intentionally or accidently if this situation was to continue

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I saw a show about Zoos just the other night. Morgon Spurlock-Inside Man. They showed how the trainers and vets train Gorillas to accept medical exams through a clicker and positive reinforcement. Studies have showed the Zoo great apes have heart disease which isn't the case in the wild as far as other field studies show. They think its because their diet isn't exactly what they get in the wild or possibly from stress. All the gorillas at this particuar zoo (can't remember name) are on human heart meds. FWIW.

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PoodleHunter

Clicker training has always fascinated me and I've heard of it producing some amazing results.  Friend of a friend has a chocolate lab who, on command, goes to fridge, opens it(rope tied to handle), and selects (between no more than 2 choices) the appropriate can of beer requested, and delivers to hand!  Said he did it all with clicker training.  I can see primates responding to this as well.  People use positive reinforcement (treat-training) to train their kids all the time!

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This is one topic that has no right or wrong side. 

- kids are born to explore and test limits. I would not prefer a completely obedient and docile child.

-I love zoos, but hate to see animals confined.

- when it is a choice between the gorilla and a kid, I would opt for the child every time.

- there is no blame to be cast; not on the zoo staff, not on the mother, not on the gorilla and certainly not on the child.

- if there is a negative to this whole tragedy then we must blame social media for grossly inflating the case. An accident happened, the child was safely extracted, a gorilla died. 

 

In the words of someone famous: "There are too many saviours on my cross!"

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I just happened to talk to my daughter who used to work at the San Francisco Zoo before going to grad school (she's getting her Ph.D. from Emory University next week, and starts work for the CDC next month!)

 

Anyway, when she worked at the SF Zoo, two knuckleheads (both with criminal records) came to the zoo both drunk and had been smoking pot. They went to the Tiger cage, and were throwing rocks at the tigress, hitting her numerous times.  One of them opened a gate, and got into the cage, and threw more rocks. The tigress jump him, and killed him. The tigress got out of the cage, and ran down the other idiot, severely wounding him before a zoo  worker (my daughter's good friend) had to shoot and kill the animal.

 

The families of the two knuckleheads sued, and won big money that bankrupted the zoo. They were scheduled to close down, but the City of SF bailed them out, and paid the moneys. The guy who lived was caught robbing a liquor store 3 months later.

 

Bottomline: The animal always loses, and the knuckleheads always win when it comes to a zoo.

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HAMMER DOG
1 hour ago, Brad Eden said:

I saw a show about Zoos just the other night. Morgon Spurlock-Inside Man. They showed how the trainers and vets train Gorillas to accept medical exams through a clicker and positive reinforcement. Studies have showed the Zoo great apes have heart disease which isn't the case in the wild as far as other field studies show. They think its because their diet isn't exactly what they get in the wild or possibly from stress. All the gorillas at this particuar zoo (can't remember name) are on human heart meds. FWIW.

Brad one thing they found out around 10 years ago was there was a diet difference they found in wild gorillas that was not know before, they forage a form of wild ginger on a regular basis, the thought is that single difference could be a large part of the cardiomyopathy that was significant at that time, many zoos have instituted using that herb now and the % has dropped, plus its thought that part could be despite the 40-50 year wild life span very few live to be as old as captives do, I believe now there are around 30 gorillas on Beta blockewrs and ACE inhibitors around the nation and all are well on in years, but this came to light with a 24 year old at the National Zoo who was stricken with heart disease, Stress and environmental issues like pollution that wild gorillas don't encounter are thought to play a part as well.

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