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“The post that got me fired up here was the one which offered the idea that the wild animals hunted on my land were public property and so the public somehow had a right to hunt where ever they might be.”

 

I never said that

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As a retired Game Warden and a long time hunter, I have always sharply defined the terms "hunter" and "poacher" as two entirely different beings, something most media outlets fail to do to push their

I have caught this trespasser/poacher on my trail cams the last 3 nights.  I've started packing my .44 whenever I'm out with the dog!

Interesting and timely subject. The privatization of hunting and fishing in this country by lease or ownership has really picked up steam in recent years. Semantics aside I have to agree with Bob

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On 10/27/2018 at 3:50 PM, SelbyLowndes said:

The  jump from public game ownership to a claim to the right of possession is not logical, nor is it in keeping with universally accepted notion (and law) of property rights. ..SelbyLowndes  

Our license enables that jump and it’s purchased from the state ie the public

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Like I said you are misinterpreting my statement I was very clear about trespass and property rights

 

no matter how much you want it to be true the landowner does not own the game on his land the state ( public) does and that is settled law I am sorry that fact angers you

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Wild game is "owned" by no one until legally taken into possession by harvest or taming (if allowed by law).  Notwithstanding the very misleading article you read, not even the government "owns" wild animals, it only has a public trust authority to regulate their taking.  You conflate 'the public' with government.  It is not the same.  Done explaining...SelbyLowndes

 

No anger.

Edited by SelbyLowndes
added last sentence
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Since we are still talking about leasing land. One of my biggest freelance design clients was a digital call maker based in Maine. The owner had a deer lease in Illinois where he and friends, and big wigs from the hunting industry hunted and shot big deer. Not sure of how big a lease it was but sizable I think. He would tell me about all the pheasants they were hearing and were seeing on the lease, and I'd ask them if anyone hunted them. He adamantly said NO WAY, that would disturb the deer and the deer hunting. So in this case the deer hunter gets the last word.

 

Anyhow, this has been a very interesting and respectfully debated Topic,  and I commend those who disagreed and argued their point without sailing the Topic off the rails. I wish all incindiary Topics were the same.

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I'm not sure the point of ownership is required regarding the point.

Property rights makes it mute....doesn't it?

Maybe I've missed something.

 

On public lands, am I to argue with a fellow as to who might own that critter to a greater extent? Because I've been a citizen longer?

 

Maybe I've missed something.

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Interesting and timely subject.

The privatization of hunting and fishing in this country by lease or ownership has really picked up steam in recent years. Semantics aside I have to agree with Bobman, its pretty much a European model where you purchase wildlife. How this trend will play out and what it will do to the sporting traditions in this country is anyone’s guess, but personally I’m not a fan.

A couple weeks ago I and 3 friends drove from our homes in MN to WY. We put up some tents on public land and spent the next few days having a ball hunting antelope, never having to set foot on private property, ask anyone for permission, or pay an access fee. The ability to do something like this is pretty unique to the U.S. and Canada and not something to be taken for granted or left unprotected. This is thankfully a politics free zone so I will end this by saying Backcountry Hunters and Anglers is a great source of information from the “keep it public” perspective.  

P.S. Poor sportsmanship, disrespect of private property, poor shooting, and slob hunting in general are as damaging as any political movement. Jmo.

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You know, there is no longer any such thing as frontier or non-owned land in the USA.  The vaunted open ranges of the American West are either in private ownership or belong to the state or federal government.  I hope everyone realizes that the North American Model for game management is a plan, not a law.

 

The government could take the right to hunt or lease hunting rights away from America's landowners.  They'd have to do it under due process of law and pay each landowner for the property interest they are confiscating though.  I don't see it happening.  I think we'll see the right to hunt go away before the government spends that sort of money. 

 

I took a two week trip to Saskatchewan a few weeks ago to hunt waterfowl.  Even there where farmers welcome hunters to shoo out the grain wasting birds, we never hunt without permission, and those who do are guaranteed to meet a Mountie.  Gladly, leasing has not taken hold up there, but a growing number of farmers are requesting anything from a bottle to straight cash for the privilege of hunting.  We NEVER pay as we feel it encourages the practice.  But its coming, its coming...SelbyLowndes

 

Daniel Boone moved West for a reason!

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1 hour ago, Big Al said:

The state of Montana pays landowners to allow access to hunters through the BMA program.

Oklahoma has a similar program.

OLAP.

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3 hours ago, SelbyLowndes said:

I hope everyone realizes that the North American Model for game management is a plan, not a law.

Actually it is a whole bunch of laws, based on an idea as all laws are.

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I know this goes against the haves vs the have nots, buy it or cry it argument as regards land ownership but I must reiterate the very real difference twixt Private and Corporate land ownership and how Leasing has opened one door to a sadly discovered and tightly closed second door as regards hunting access, in too many areas....acreage not owned by an individual's uncle Bob.

 

It is nice when dad or mom wants 3 year-old jenny to sit between their legs on a deer or turkey lease to so touch upon a hunting heritage but, for some of us in past days and likely for some still, legally open Corporate land represented a gift ...a gift freely given which was indian-gived(pardon the lack of PC) to any high bidder with a NT sign.

For those younkers w/o parents with deep pockets or w/o a need to match Lee or Tiff, the loss of that gift was/is fundamental to reduced hunter recruitment....believe it or not.

Additionally, I am unconvinced that jenny will never experience burn-out or that little jimmie will indeed carry his early-given experience in a deer blind to becoming a true mossback or, the more literate fuddy-duddy.

I have personally seen kids burned-out by today's deer "hunting"....others, not so much but it happens more than it may be convenient to believe.

Assuming Leasing is a hunter recruitment miracle or will save the heritage.....is quite a leap off a very low stool.

 

There was a time when game organizations and less selfish folks could have impacted in a postive way the structures of Leasing, ie some sliding form of the Mead grouse permit, for example......however we, even singular deer hunters, have lost because few cared, few saw an issue, too many saw a way to chirp "I got mine" and too many still seek to ignore all but the have or have not element of the discussion.

 

Why do I care?.....I'm ok re hunting opportunities so.....yes, I guess I should not give a fig.

I guess I am just a weak man....anyone have a marshmallow?

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, SelbyLowndes said:

You know, there is no longer any such thing as frontier or non-owned land in the USA.  The vaunted open ranges of the American West are either in private ownership or belong to the state or federal government.  I hope everyone realizes that the North American Model for game management is a plan, not a law.

 

The government could take the right to hunt or lease hunting rights away from America's landowners.  They'd have to do it under due process of law and pay each landowner for the property interest they are confiscating though.  I don't see it happening.  I think we'll see the right to hunt go away before the government spends that sort of money. 

 

I took a two week trip to Saskatchewan a few weeks ago to hunt waterfowl.  Even there where farmers welcome hunters to shoo out the grain wasting birds, we never hunt without permission, and those who do are guaranteed to meet a Mountie.  Gladly, leasing has not taken hold up there, but a growing number of farmers are requesting anything from a bottle to straight cash for the privilege of hunting.  We NEVER pay as we feel it encourages the practice.  But its coming, its coming...SelbyLowndes

 

Daniel Boone moved West for a reason!

I'm so confused Selby....So you sell leases but don't want pay a guy yourself so as to not encourage the practice?! Say what?!  I guess we're all happy to be freeloaders when allowed.

 

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7 hours ago, Speedgoat44 said:

I'm so confused Selby....So you sell leases but don't want pay a guy yourself so as to not encourage the practice?! Say what?!  I guess we're all happy to be freeloaders when allowed.

 

 

 

Of course!...SelbyLowndes

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16 hours ago, Big Al said:

The state of Montana pays landowners to allow access to hunters through the BMA program.

So does Michigan but it is not very good and way less land than it use to be. 

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