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HUNTING ND? MAYBE NOT


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sharptail grouse
1 hour ago, robp said:

Thanks Dick.  I have emailed the Senators with 6 different emails

This is a big deal for me and if it  passes this will really put a dent in if not end my hunting

I just can't see landowner picking up an unknown number. I've hunted about the same areas for the last 20 years have never once had a negative interaction with a land owner or other hunter

You have to knock on their door and talk to them in person - shake their hand. Its not the end unless you want it to be. And anyway it sounds like you know who to talk to if you've been hunting the same area for twenty years.

 

Again - good luck on this.

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Not every landowner enjoys the stream of hunters asking for permission. They get lunches, dinners, tv shows, tractor repairs and everything else interrupted by hunters. They can easily lose a couple o

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2 hours ago, gjw said:

Thanks Dick for the update.  As your the point man on this issue here, could you give us a general update on what the revised bill looks like as it stands now?

 

Thanks again for all your efforts!

 

Greg

 

This is complex without the bill in front of you for comparison and is a ballpark analysis. The House split the 10 page bill into 2 parts and voted separately, A & B. It still has to go through the Senate, possible CC, and then back through both houses. If the bill stays the same sportsmen should be good to go.

 

           Part A was stuff that was not harmful to sportsmen. 

A: Sections 1,4, 7, 8, 11 passed. 
Sec.1 Criminal trespass is amended somewhat, making it easier to remove an unwanted person( OK)
Sec. 4 Legally posted to enter is still signs (posters) used as before (OK)
Sec. 7 Prima Facie evidence (OK)
Sec. 8 Outfitters must have  permission on all private land, state, and Federal (Excellent)
Sec. 11 Provide education on trespass regulations (Excellent)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Part B was stuff we didn't want.
 
B: Sections 2, 3, 5, 6, 12, 13 that failed.   
Sec. 2 Reverts this portion to the old law on Criminal trespass (OK)
Sec. 3 Reverts to physical signs and deletes database app (OK)
Sec. 5 Reverts to legally posted instead of privately owned  (Excellent!!)
Sec. 6 Reverts to old law to enter and retrieve game (OK)
Sec.12 Removes contingent date / kills electronic posting (Excellent)
Sec. 13 Removes contingent date / kills access committee / electronic posting (Excellent)
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1 hour ago, sharptail grouse said:

You have to knock on their door and talk to them in person - shake their hand. Its not the end unless you want it to be. And anyway it sounds like you know who to talk to if you've been hunting the same area for twenty years.

 

Again - good luck on this.

 

Not every landowner enjoys the stream of hunters asking for permission. They get lunches, dinners, tv shows, tractor repairs and everything else interrupted by hunters. They can easily lose a couple of hours daily handling the groups asking to hunt.   

 

While it has been a long time since I called North Dakota home,,, most landowners did not care if you hunted with a shotgun as long as you didn't hunt close to their house. More of them would post their land when the rifle deer season opened. They were rightfully protective of their livestock.

 

These changes in trespass laws are one more hurdle for the recruitment of new hunters. Young  hunters who do not have family land connections are reticent about having to knock on doors asking to hunt. If a person doesn't get hooked on hunting by early adulthood,,, chances are they never take it up. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Remo said:

 

This is complex without the bill in front of you for comparison and is a ballpark analysis. The House split the 10 page bill into 2 parts and voted separately, A & B. It still has to go through the Senate, possible CC, and then back through both houses. If the bill stays the same sportsmen should be good to go.

 

           Part A was stuff that was not harmful to sportsmen. 

A: Sections 1,4, 7, 8, 11 passed. 
Sec.1 Criminal trespass is amended somewhat, making it easier to remove an unwanted person( OK)
Sec. 4 Legally posted to enter is still signs (posters) used as before (OK)
Sec. 7 Prima Facie evidence (OK)
Sec. 8 Outfitters must have  permission on all private land, state, and Federal (Excellent)
Sec. 11 Provide education on trespass regulations (Excellent)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Part B was stuff we didn't want.
 
B: Sections 2, 3, 5, 6, 12, 13 that failed.   
Sec. 2 Reverts this portion to the old law on Criminal trespass (OK)
Sec. 3 Reverts to physical signs and deletes database app (OK)
Sec. 5 Reverts to legally posted instead of privately owned  (Excellent!!)
Sec. 6 Reverts to old law to enter and retrieve game (OK)
Sec.12 Removes contingent date / kills electronic posting (Excellent)
Sec. 13 Removes contingent date / kills access committee / electronic posting (Excellent)

 

Thanks Dick, this sure helps navigating thru the fog as they say. Much appreciated!

 

Best,

 

Greg

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sharptail grouse
11 hours ago, 406dn said:

 

Not every landowner enjoys the stream of hunters asking for permission. They get lunches, dinners, tv shows, tractor repairs and everything else interrupted by hunters. They can easily lose a couple of hours daily handling the groups asking to hunt.   

 

While it has been a long time since I called North Dakota home,,, most landowners did not care if you hunted with a shotgun as long as you didn't hunt close to their house. More of them would post their land when the rifle deer season opened. They were rightfully protective of their livestock.

 

These changes in trespass laws are one more hurdle for the recruitment of new hunters. Young  hunters who do not have family land connections are reticent about having to knock on doors asking to hunt. If a person doesn't get hooked on hunting by early adulthood,,, chances are they never take it up. 

 

 

Yes. All those things must be thought about. I try not to show up at meal times for instance. And if I see that someone is obviously busy working livestock or running machinery I try somewhere else. Ask early before the work starts  and the day's hassles begin. If the landowners as a group did not agree with this then I am assuming the push to pass it would not have gone this far. It seems like private (or corporate) landowners  have a lot of pull in most Ag states. They do in MT.

And yes - one has to be brave and approach a stranger, look them in the eye and shake their hand. Introduce yourself. Then ask them politely for a favor. Don't talk about yourself or your opinions beyond introductions unless asked. Try and find a connection. Read their mood and bow out before it becomes too obvious.Those are not bad social skills to encourage in our youth. Not everything can be procured with a dumbphone. Human interaction is still important. And if the parents of all these up and coming hunters took the time to introduce their kids to the landowners where they had or where going to ask permission they would be building a legacy for their kids that might ensure them a place to hunt into the future. Besides, one of the easiest ways to get permission is to have a young hunter along. Far better than your smelly unshaven buddies 😉

 

Again - good luck to ND hunter on defeating this. But if it passes its NOT the end of the world. Just the beginning of a new one - another way to look at this is that you won't have as much competition out there - you might have it all to yourself if you are first in line. And you might make some new friends    😊

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32 minutes ago, sharptail grouse said:

Yes. All those things must be thought about. I try not to show up at meal times for instance. And if I see that someone is obviously busy working livestock or running machinery I try somewhere else. Ask early before the work starts  and the day's hassles begin. If the landowners as a group did not agree with this then I am assuming the push to pass it would not have gone this far. It seems like private (or corporate) landowners  have a lot of pull in most Ag states. They do in MT.

 

 

So your approach is to be the first hassle of the day. 

 

Landowners don't universally agree on trespass or anything else. North Dakota has always allowed landowners to deny access to their land. All they have to do is post it.

 

It is the default position that expressed permission must be granted that will among other things cause hunters to interrupt a farmer's or rancher's workday from early to late in the day. Look at how many of the block management lands in Montana that have a sign in box. That is not for the convenience of the hunter. The landowner prefers to have his or her time uninterrupted. 

 

 

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In twelve years of owning the ranch I've only had one hunter knock on my door wanting to hunt.  I've had lots of trespassers though.  Believe me the trespassers are a lot more aggravation than the hunters.

 

 

6 minutes ago, 406dn said:

 

So your approach is to be the first hassle of the day. 

 

Landowners don't universally agree on trespass or anything else. North Dakota has always allowed landowners to deny access to their land. All they have to do is post it.

 

It is the default position that expressed permission must be granted that will among other things cause hunters to interrupt a farmer's or rancher's workday from early to late in the day. Look at how many of the block management lands in Montana that have a sign in box. That is not for the convenience of the hunter. The landowner prefers to have his or her time uninterrupted. 

 

 

 

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sharptail grouse
7 minutes ago, 406dn said:

 

So your approach is to be the first hassle of the day. 

 

Landowners don't universally agree on trespass or anything else. North Dakota has always allowed landowners to deny access to their land. All they have to do is post it.

 

It is the default position that expressed permission must be granted that will among other things cause hunters to interrupt a farmer's or rancher's workday from early to late in the day. Look at how many of the block management lands in Montana that have a sign in box. That is not for the convenience of the hunter. The landowner prefers to have his or her time uninterrupted. 

 

 

No. My approach is to talk to them before everyone else makes it an ordeal. This is where preseason scouting road trips help immensely if it can be done. And not all landowners universally agree that polite visitors are hassles. Some of the more remote ones welcome the chance to visit if approached with respect. You even get to drink bad coffee and eat fresh baked cookies sometimes. :D

 

And my experience is that when landowners don't want to be hassled all day but are OK with hunting they give me permission the first time I ask and then tell me I don't have to ask again - I'm good to go as long as I park in a designated place so they know who is on their land. This is pretty common. But they still want to be asked first as a common courtesy. You probably remember when MT FWP had their "Ask First" campaign going.

 

It seems we both are successfully hunting private lands here in MT. I am assuming you know some landowners to ask and have been successful in that because you know how to ask. And lest you believe that this only works where you know the neighbors I would add that I have had good luck with politely asking permission in other parts of my home state as well as other states. I've been denied too, but never rudely. If you are polite most folks are polite back to you whatever the answer. That's just part of the deal when you make cold calls.

 

Good grief - all I am trying to do is point out the positive side of this if this deal goes south for ND hunters. If ND hunters want to give up and stay home and watch football - go for it. Maybe I'll start road tripping to ND. Sounds like the hunting pressure is going to slack off dramatically if this passes.

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The argument that access will be the same as other states implies that the "other" state is good enough. At some point, when reduced to the lowest denominator, it's not good enough.

 

Iowa has had the no entry without permission with the exception for unarmed retrieval, forever. And many landowners do not answer their door for a polite knock. I've posted before about knocking at 10+ doors a day and not having anyone answer. They can't all know it's me 🙂 I don't even stop anymore unless I see someone outside. 

 

I also don't believe most of the concern on the UJ is for ourselves. I know I have very good luck getting on once I make contact and have been allowed on a lot of ground when their initial reaction was "I don't allow hunting". In spite of a slight resentment of competition, none of us really want to see young people who have yet to develop cold call skills, shut out of hunting. I can't tell you how many non-hunters I've met who can't believe that we knock on doors uninvited and ask to hunt. 

 

 

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sharptail grouse
1 minute ago, Randy S said:

The argument that access will be the same as other states implies that the "other" state is good enough. At some point, when reduced to the lowest denominator, it's not good enough.

 

Iowa has had the no entry without permission with the exception for unarmed retrieval, forever. And many landowners do not answer their door for a polite knock. I've posted before about knocking at 10+ doors a day and not having anyone answer. They can't all know it's me 🙂 I don't even stop anymore unless I see someone outside. 

 

I also don't believe most of the concern on the UJ is for ourselves. I know I have very good luck getting on once I make contact and have been allowed on a lot of ground when their initial reaction was "I don't allow hunting". In spite of a slight resentment of competition, none of us really want to see young people who have yet to develop cold call skills, shut out of hunting. I can't tell you how many non-hunters I've met who can't believe that we knock on doors uninvited and ask to hunt. 

 

 

Good points. I've walked away from some closed doors as well, though around here people generally answer their doors because someone "might be in trouble".

 

One question - how did you develop cold call skills? How do young hunters figure this out if we don't show them? The way I learned was to follow my older brother up to the door when we wanted to hunt quail or trap muskrats back in Missouri. Looking back on it I'm pretty sure my brother was using me :D But it worked for both of us.

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bennelli-banger

                     Some of my best friends are farmers in SD, where I have been hunting for about 27 years.  Yup, started with knocking on doors, calling them, meeting in bars or coffee shops, or through other mutual acquaintances...I feel like most people have room for at least one new friend in their life, if the new friend is sincere, thoughtful, and has some decent qualities.  I get invited to lots of gatherings, even from some of the folks that I have met more recently.  I can read people pretty well, I leave well enough alone when it is apparent and called for.  I hope for everyone's sake that ND laws stay the same, but frankly, if it gets more onerous and difficult for get on land, I will have more opportunity, as there will be less hunters competing for said land.  I enjoy  the landowner relationships a lot, darned near as much as the hunting.  Being out there in the offseason demonstrates that to the landowners, who are keenly aware of BS and insincerity and jerks from the city.   Hope everyone has a good season in 2019!  Cannot wait!!!  

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1 hour ago, 406dn said:

 

So your approach is to be the first hassle of the day. 

 

Landowners don't universally agree on trespass or anything else. North Dakota has always allowed landowners to deny access to their land. All they have to do is post it.

 

It is the default position that expressed permission must be granted that will among other things cause hunters to interrupt a farmer's or rancher's workday from early to late in the day. Look at how many of the block management lands in Montana that have a sign in box. That is not for the convenience of the hunter. The landowner prefers to have his or her time uninterrupted. 

 

 

Good lord , I have been met ONCE in almost 20 years of hunting at least 6 different states and asking permission for access to private land with and angry owner, once . I’ve certainly not been given permission sometimes, and that’s just fine , it’s THEIR property, not yours.  I used to bring an entire huge cooler full of specialty cheeses from my home state , and give them a block regardless if they granted permission or not!! As a thank you for the courtesy of speaking with me. It’s amazing how many times I was granted permission After they told me no, and then I gave them the cheese anyway and thanked them for their time. Hell , I thinks it’s part of the fun. No doubt sometimes it may not be the best time , but more times than not , they live pretty desolate lives and enjoy speaking to new people. I hope You guys keep this free trespass law as it stands right now , because I’m not sure how hunters would function in the future without it🙄. Quit the emails, the texts, and TALK to people, this is such a huge problem in our country right now. The only time people truly communicate is electronically , and it’s creating a divide that will never come back. Good luck 👍 with the vote , but remember , 47 other states don’t have this law , and people still “ find a way” 

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BB Wrote:  "landowners, who are keenly aware of BS and insincerity and jerks from the city"

 

This part is true. 

 

I try to find something about the farm that I can  comment on when I seek permission. Years ago I knocked on a door in ND seeking permission to chase some roosters I had seen go into a small piece of cover on posted land about half a mile from a farm house. No Hunting was the answer I got right away. I thanked the farmer but as I was walking to my truck to leave I noticed he had a 32 volt Jacobs Wind Generator turning in the breeze. I know a far bit about the Cadillac of wind generators and started asking a few questions. Before I knew it I was getting a tour of his battery set-up and the barn that was powered by the wind. We spent better than a half hour chatting and of course as I was leaving he said I could go chase those roosters but the rest of his land was posted and unless I had permission I better not go on!!

 

Here in Manitoba we have to have permission to hunt on any land, posted or not. You get used to asking but the hardest part is finding the landowner who lives 100 miles away. I do not like asking for permission over the phone as it is too easy for the landowner to say No...I do way better in person.

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bennelli-banger

              My experience with general human nature, including very small towns in the Dakota's, is that jealousy, envy, competition, meanness, kindness, good naturedness,  graciousness, generosity exist in some fashion in the same locales, at the same time...it's not all a "Rockwellian" utopia, I know that for sure...OMG!  Soap operas exist wherever there are people, and the smaller the town, the more universal the plot line is known!  Bottom line, sometimes a fresh face who isn't part of the mix is refreshing and welcome....if I had a buck for every time I have been told "don't repeat this", and then learn some new fact about so and so, I could buy all of us reading this thread a low-level lunch!  Lots of the folks I know out there don't get away from the farm very often, nor do they want to...but they like to learn about what is going on back in Duluth, Mn for example...or, learn about what I do for work...but like Canuck said,  make it about them...with all people, at all times!  We all have an interesting story, and few of us ever get asked, other than to create the venue for others to share their story after half-listening to what you had to say!   Common sense, really, but not practiced (much less perfected) very often!  I start all brand new door knocking or phone calling with the statement..."Mr Jones, My name is Mike, I am an out of state hunter from Mn, and I am very sorry to bother you this morning...I know you get bothered by guys like me a lot."   

 

       Totally different tangent, but it is EXACTLY what we are talking about.  Last summer, at my local grocery store, I hear the woman in front of me telling the cashier, who knows her, that she is exhausted, that she and her husband have been at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Mn for the past 3 weeks for his open heart surgery.  I was tired...very tired...thought I could ignore it...she was older, maybe 65-70...but no, I had to get involved...it's what I do!  I asked if it was valve replacement surgery, she then explained what it was, something different.  I then asked her how the CAREGIVER was doing...she about fell over!  She evidently hadn't been asked that in the past 3 weeks...always ALL about the patient/victim.  I wished her well after listening for a minute or so.  She was a really nice, and nice looking, woman...I saw her van parked about 20' from my car...I walked to her, and continued the chat...I told her I have been a caretaker for my wife for the past few years...she was very sincere and empathetic..she then struggled to tell me something...stopped and started about 3 times...I held out my hand, and held hers, and told her my name, and that it was just fine if she didn't want to tell me.  She then told me that her 74 year old husband was in bed, at their home, with a prostitute the day before they left for the Mayo Clinic...she asked me what I thought of that...I told her, and it isn't relevant here, but we had a REALLY heartfelt chat for about 5 minutes, but she had to rush off to get back to him.   SHE FOUND HIM IN BED WITH A HOOKER!  Do you think her kids heard about that?  Family members?  Friends?  I don't know, but I kind of doubt it....so she told a complete stranger in the parking lot of the local grocery store.  THE BEST FARMER CONTACT I EVER MADE told me the line by line details of his form 1040 that he just filed, and I hardly knew him..I went out to SD in mid April to see him and make good on a promise I made to him the prior fall, before he left for Texas for the winter.  15 or so years later, his oldest son, who is a really close friend of mine now, called me and asked if I would call their 14 year old daughter and talk to her about her classmate that died of cancer after a 2 year battle.....(the class size just dropped from about 9 to about 8, FWIW)...he didn't know what to tell her himself.  I think that is one of the 2-3 things in my life I am most proud of, quite frankly, and I don't want to toot my own horn, but it reinforces my point, I think.  I mind my manners pretty well, take care of others pretty well, and like to have fun pretty well...I think that over half of my ten "close friends" are farmers/ranchers in the Dakota's...

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sharptail grouse
1 minute ago, bennelli-banger said:

              My experience with general human nature, including very small towns in the Dakota's, is that jealousy, envy, competition, meanness, kindness, good naturedness,  graciousness, generosity exist in some fashion in the same locales, at the same time...it's not all a "Rockwellian" utopia, I know that for sure...OMG!  Soap operas exist wherever there are people, and the smaller the town, the more universal the plot line is known!  Bottom line, sometimes a fresh face who isn't part of the mix is refreshing and welcome....if I had a buck for every time I have been told "don't repeat this", and then learn some new fact about so and so, I could buy all of us reading this thread a low-level lunch!  Lots of the folks I know out there don't get away from the farm very often, nor do they want to...but they like to learn about what is going on back in Duluth, Mn for example...or, learn about what I do for work...but like Canuck said,  make it about them...with all people, at all times!  We all have an interesting story, and few of us ever get asked, other than to create the venue for others to share their story after half-listening to what you had to say!   Common sense, really, but not practiced (much less perfected) very often!  I start all brand new door knocking or phone calling with the statement..."Mr Jones, My name is Mike, I am an out of state hunter from Mn, and I am very sorry to bother you this morning...I know you get bothered by guys like me a lot."   

 

       Totally different tangent, but it is EXACTLY what we are talking about.  Last summer, at my local grocery store, I hear the woman in front of me telling the cashier, who knows her, that she is exhausted, that she and her husband have been at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Mn for the past 3 weeks for his open heart surgery.  I was tired...very tired...thought I could ignore it...she was older, maybe 65-70...but no, I had to get involved...it's what I do!  I asked if it was valve replacement surgery, she then explained what it was, something different.  I then asked her how the CAREGIVER was doing...she about fell over!  She evidently hadn't been asked that in the past 3 weeks...always ALL about the patient/victim.  I wished her well after listening for a minute or so.  She was a really nice, and nice looking, woman...I saw her van parked about 20' from my car...I walked to her, and continued the chat...I told her I have been a caretaker for my wife for the past few years...she was very sincere and empathetic..she then struggled to tell me something...stopped and started about 3 times...I held out my hand, and held hers, and told her my name, and that it was just fine if she didn't want to tell me.  She then told me that her 74 year old husband was in bed, at their home, with a prostitute the day before they left for the Mayo Clinic...she asked me what I thought of that...I told her, and it isn't relevant here, but we had a REALLY heartfelt chat for about 5 minutes, but she had to rush off to get back to him.   SHE FOUND HIM IN BED WITH A HOOKER!  Do you think her kids heard about that?  Family members?  Friends?  I don't know, but I kind of doubt it....so she told a complete stranger in the parking lot of the local grocery store.  THE BEST FARMER CONTACT I EVER MADE told me the line by line details of his form 1040 that he just filed, and I hardly knew him..I went out to SD in mid April to see him and make good on a promise I made to him the prior fall, before he left for Texas for the winter.  15 or so years later, his oldest son, who is a really close friend of mine now, called me and asked if I would call their 14 year old daughter and talk to her about her classmate that died of cancer after a 2 year battle.....(the class size just dropped from about 9 to about 8, FWIW)...he didn't know what to tell her himself.  I think that is one of the 2-3 things in my life I am most proud of, quite frankly, and I don't want to toot my own horn.  I mind my manners pretty well, take care of others pretty well, and like to have fun pretty well...I think that over half of my ten "close friends" are farmers/ranchers in the Dakota's...

Holy Sh**! I can't top that one (though I've had some pretty unusual encounters) and doubt I could make it up if I was paid for trying! But you and GB Jack and Canuck very clearly illustrate what I'm trying to get at here. And the great thing about getting to know landowners is that the more you know (even though you may feel you know too much sometimes ) the more you understand the local fabric of the place and the more likely it is to get permission elsewhere because you have figured out how "things are done around here". And neighbors talk to each other about "their" hunters, so making a good or bad impression travels with you whether you realize it or not. You make connections as you go - it builds on itself. I frequently leave a landowner visit secure in the knowledge that while we probably don't agree on some things (don't bring up politics!) and I may be viewed as a bit odd because I spend so much time chasing birds (among other things), I am OK and basically harmless guy and if nothing else worth a smile and a shake of the head as I drive off. Once you figure out how to find some common ground you are there. And I can't help but believe that its a universal truth that if we as a society spent more time looking for common ground we would be a lot better off as a society. Most people like to have others take a polite interest in what is important to them and who doesn't like to find agreement with their view?    

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