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Tim Frazier

I'm guilty...I shot a doe last year on a dead run going away from me at about 20 yards.  With the wind in my favor she had walked up behind me and when I turned around she didn't zag and I pulled the trigger as she jumped a log.  45-70 between the shoulder blades is a humane as it gets.

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I find there is more accomplishment with a 15 yard shot then a 400 yard every day of the year.  At 400 yards, an animal is just a living target.  

To me the "sporting" element of the hunt lies within the range of an animal's senses. There's always an acceptable distance that an aware animal could/should have recognized danger. Shooting within th

Ethics (as opposed to legality) are a personal thing. I find as I get older, that ethics have become more of a factor in the way that I hunt - indeed, in the way I live my life.    I try try

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In Mass, you could shoot as many deer in a row as you had tags, with no requirement to tag one before the other.  Recently they changed it and you can only take two now before having to tag one.   But in the good old days I can tell you it was quite a rush to have half a dozen deer come exploding out of thick cover at you and mow down three with your  pump gun.   I shot a deer this year with my muzzleoader, just a step or two away from me, as it ran by just as fast as a deer can go.  It hit the the ground and slid probably 10 or 15 feet in the snow behind me before coming to a dead stop.  I love shooting at running deer, as long as its not straight away.   I feel like all the wing shooting I've done over the years gives me an advantage over the friends I do deer drives with.  

 

It doesn't feel unethical to shot at a running deer to me.  Dead is dead.

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2 hours ago, Tim Frazier said:

I'm guilty...I shot a doe last year on a dead run going away from me at about 20 yards.  With the wind in my favor she had walked up behind me and when I turned around she didn't zag and I pulled the trigger as she jumped a log.  45-70 between the shoulder blades is a humane as it gets.

I think I remember you mentioning that you participate in deer drives. (Correct me if I’m wrong) My understanding is that running shots are the norm when doing that. Driving deer is illegal in Maine (as is baiting). Shows to go you the difference state to state.

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Tim Frazier

Yes (deer drives) no (running shots common). When drives are done right deer move more natural than you would think.  Especially if you use the wind and move slowly.   The doe this year came from behind me walking towards the driver.  I would have never shot at a deer on the ground towards the drivers.   I actually see just as many deer running on opening day when we don’t drive but more shooting is going on.  

 

For many any years I was against driving deer as the examples I had around me were pretty poor.  But now I enjoy doing one or two man drives more than being a shooter as it requires me to be attentive and pay attention to where the deer feel safe moving and where I can just let my scent do the work. 

 

This is Day I was one of 2 drivers over several hundred acres and they had never taken this many deer on one drive in many decades of hunting this way.  Being that most of the shooters were women and young kids made it even better.  The other driver is one of the best deer hunters I know so it was an honor to be out there with him. 

 

Of course teaching a young hunter hunter how to drive is equally fun. 

 

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Some years back Maine made it legal for “3 people to hunt together”. Before that any group of hunters gathering at trucks were thought to be driving deer and likely were. Large parties of hunters would drive sections of woods despite it being illegal. It was as traditional as partridge breast’s atop the baked beans. I admit to doing it when I first moved to Maine. A neighbor who I’ve become close friends with felt bad for the bumbling new flatlander and took me under his wing. I admit it was fun, and not a sure thing, and  I did a lot of driving and no shooting. That group disbanded and I started hunting deer solo and they started getting hung up up. Generally most of the old timers (in my area at least) who drove deer are gone or too old to hunt anymore.

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14 minutes ago, Tim Frazier said:

When drives are done right deer move more natural than you would think.  Especially if you use the wind and move slowly.  

 

Getting the deer to walk in front of a shooter is always the goal but there's a number of real world factors that thwart that.  The piece being pushed could be too big for a small party to push stealthily and require noise and throwing rock's or sticks into the thickest parts to force the deer to move.  The piece could be too small to push stealthily; the deer run as soon as you step of pavement into their domain, doesn't matter how slow and sneaky you think you can move.  Due to size and shape of a piece, safe direction of shooting and setback laws often trumps being able to play the wind.  You have to make the best of what you have.   And I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy a 10 foot self defense shot more than a relaxed 40 yard shot.

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4 hours ago, MAArcher said:

That's a good one, I needed a laugh.

 

It seems that our topic related disagreement revolves around the question of there being a difference between hunting and shooting. You think that they're the same and I do not. I don't know of a westerner who considers shooting rock chucks and prairie dogs "hunting". They're long range, live, target practice. You evidently feel that taking a deer sized animal with the same effort required of shooting a pasture prairie dog, demonstrates some special skill. Considering that you feel he's as likely to kill the animal at 800 yards, because he's so skillful, as I am at 200 yards, I wonder why he doesn't hike his candy ass across the canyon before he shoots since he's going to have to walk over there to retrieve it anyway.  

 

I can help you with that. He didn't walk over there because he's either a poor hunter or didn't have the confidence you credit him with.  

 

I don't consider myself a deer hunter as I've only shot about a dozen. But I have shot my share of called coyotes. I've been calling for almost 40 years and taken fox and coyote in 11 different states. (I predator hunt about 25% as much as I bird hunt.) My furthest kill was 600+ yards after a buddy crippled it. I've taken a decent number at 400 yards and with a rest am about 50% on straight line running coyotes out to 150 yards. I consider myself to be a fair rifle shot because I've known a couple of really good ones. I've met some western ranchers that are over 50% on running coyotes out to about 100 yards, shooting off hand. Off hand, I can hardly keep them in my scope. i once watched a rancher shoot five running coyotes, chased out of a marsh, with seven shots. Oddly, he thought I was a great shot because he watched me call in a group of three coyotes that hung up at 150 yards. i took one standing and the other two running with three shots. I know that I can't hold a candle to him and many, many other shooters. But I can say that I've witnessed "skill".  

 

I ocasionally call with a guy who travels to shoot silhouettes with his vernier sighted buffalo gun. He's deadly on slow, calculated, long range coyotes with his high tech AR. But coyotes stand a very good chance against him if they're moving at all, even at less than 100 yards. (He'd smile and nod his head if he saw this.) i learned a long time ago while chasing the dream of consistantly killing coyotes that hang up past 400 yards, that if a guy could just kill every coyote that gets within 200 yards, he'd take home more fur than worrying about the 400 yarders.  

 

I remember a couple of buddies who could shoot dime sized groups off a bench who laughed when I told them about my missing coyotes at less than 100 yards. By the end of the trip, their favorite stories were about the broadside coyotes they missed at less than 100 yards. 

 

You can walk across the bar and pat the guy on the back who killed a bull elk that he hunted to within 600 yards of. I'll wonder if he bothered to get out of the truck to shoot. 

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Tim Frazier
1 hour ago, MAArcher said:

 

Getting the deer to walk in front of a shooter is always the goal but there's a number of real world factors that thwart that.  The piece being pushed could be too big for a small party to push stealthily and require noise and throwing rock's or sticks into the thickest parts to force the deer to move.  The piece could be too small to push stealthily; the deer run as soon as you step of pavement into their domain, doesn't matter how slow and sneaky you think you can move.  Due to size and shape of a piece, safe direction of shooting and setback laws often trumps being able to play the wind.  You have to make the best of what you have.   And I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy a 10 foot self defense shot more than a relaxed 40 yard shot.

You throw rocks and sticks in some of the places we hunt and no one will see a deer!   It’s a very cerebral effort and takes hours sometimes.  

 

This deer was driven by just me over a couple hours slow and methodical.  This was his first deer.  This fall he took his first buck with a bow with no trail cams, bait and outside of the rut.  

 

But don't get me wrong.  Any safe/legal deer hunting is fine with me!   Cows and hogs have a very confined life and then go to a slaughter house.  And no one preaching “sporting” is likely to turn down a good angus steak!

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2 hours ago, Randy S said:

It seems that our topic related disagreement revolves around the question of there being a difference between hunting and shooting. You think that they're the same and I do not. 

 

I can help you with that. He didn't walk over there because he's either a poor hunter or didn't have the confidence you credit him with.  

No, I think hunting is killing a wild animal and eating it, the oldest definition of the word.  No more, no less.  The word hunt has been bastardized in modern times due to ignorance.  What a lot of guys do now is "sport hunting" or whatever you'd like to call it when you impose a bunch of arbitrary rules upon the traditional act of hunting (this sort of thing probably started in medieval times).  What I mean by traditional is the longest tradition, the millions of years old tradition of venturing into the woods and procuring a meal, not the new "traditional" way grampy taught us.  So shooting prairie dogs and not using the dead animal in some way isn't hunting to me.  But shooting an elk at 600 yards and then frying up backstraps sure is.  

 

I don't think your second point is at all fair.  I think there's lots of guys who are fine hunters who have killed close up and have just turned to long range shooting as a new challenge.  The challenge of long range shooting just changes the focus somewhat from outsmarting the animal to something more internal, focus on your breathing after hiking to high ground for the shot, judging wind, quickly calculating drift and drop, etc.   Killing an animal at long range one day and then close up with a bow the next is like running a marathon one day and then doing a biathlon the next; they are just two different ways to test your skills, ones not morally superior to the other.  

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1 hour ago, Tim Frazier said:

You throw rocks and sticks in some of the places we hunt and no one will see a deer!    

 

If you do it enough times you know where the deer go and that's where you sit the guy with the gun.   The old crew I used to drive with would have mock drives in the off season to learn where the deer go and no one could join the group if they couldn't show they couldn't hit a target.  Show up with an unsighted in gun and you'd do nothing but push briers patches all day.  No stander was allowed to leave his post until the pusher got to him.  No chasing wounded deer until the drive was over and everyone was accounted for and we figured out how to incorporate the blood track into the next drive.  The guys I hunt with now are much less organized and its a lot less effective than it used to be.  No one can shoot straight.  No one knows all the properties well so don't sit in the right spots or push through the right thickets.  Guys get deer fever and run off after every deer they see instead of figuring out how to include everyone in an effective drive to get them.  I miss the "good old days" when six guys would fill a pick up truck full in a weekend.

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charlo slim
20 minutes ago, MAArcher said:

No, I think hunting is killing a wild animal and eating it, the oldest definition of the word.

 

So, just out of curiosity, if I hit a deer (or grouse or......) with my vehicle , have I hunted?

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Just now, charlo slim said:

 

So, just out of curiosity, if I hit a deer (or grouse or......), have I hunted?

It is if you hit it on purpose.  

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charlo slim
2 minutes ago, MAArcher said:

It is if you hit it on purpose.  

Oops, you are indeed quite quick on the draw.  Please see edit on my previous post.

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1 minute ago, charlo slim said:

Oops, you are indeed quite quick on the draw.  Please see edit on my previous post.

I knew what you meant, same answer.  Unconventional choice of hunting implement, and illegal, but if you try and kill a deer with a Jeep with the intention of eating it, its hunting in the traditional sense.  Now if you decide that you're only going to run a deer over with your lights off to give the deer a fair opportunity to get out of the way without being paralyzed by artificial light, your then "sport" hunting and are a good doobie for honoring the memory of Teddy Roosevelt and have secured your place beside him in hunters heaven, above all us heathens.

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19 hours ago, Brad Eden said:

Putting holes in the buck is the goal, the more the better. 


Yes this is taught at every hunter safety course I have been involved with.

We then have deer running around with their jaw shot off or missing a leg. Great fodder for the anti’s.

I am of the camp that you should be aware of the back ground of every shot, impossible to do on a running shot.

Well aware that in Maine hunter density is nil, but the fact remains is that you cannot take back a shot.

I do not need to shoot a deer that badly, if I can’t make a sure kill I will pass on it.

As to long range, yes it takes much preparation and knowing the gun and wind conditions, etc.

As to the shot, just put the crosshairs on the target, just like a carnival shooting gallery.

We had a young hunter at our perch one time, spotted a deer at 775 yards. None of us wanted the deer.

young guy who never had shot a deer asked if he could. Sure, we got the deer in the scope for him, no wind, sat him down at the bench and told him to put the crosshairs in the kill zone. Bam, one shot, DRT.  Just shooting, not hunting.

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