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Hard mouth, who's had success fixing it?


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Selby
 

All my current dogs eat pine cones like they are some kind of candy its crazy. None of my previous dogs ate them.

 

ken I emailed you a couple articles

 

I would teach hold in my house while watching the news or something using  a dowel and a tap on the bottom jaw.

 

Teach the hold command before I move to the ecollar. I put a short leash on him and make him sit and hold. When he starts moving the dowel in his mouth  tap the bottom of his jaw and say “hold”

 

you want him to understand the correction before you go to the collar

 

let  me know If the email didn’t get there I was having a fight with my laptop 

 

edit: I didn’t read before posting moliesmaster does it the same way I do he did a better job of explaining it as well 

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I have had only one dog that was what I call hard mouthed. That is, she chewed the birds while retrieving. I convinced her with shocks from the e-collar each time she bit down. That might have backfir

I have never fix HM but I have covered it up. The best way to "fix" HM is not to breed to it. Never had any issues with our own Field Bred Springer breeding but sure saw a issues and mouth problems wi

While the hairbrush/pine cone thing sounds worth an attempt or two, I'd like to circle back around to the "HOLD" command.    Mr. Jim is suggesting to use the ecollar while issuing a known co

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40 minutes ago, ryanr said:

And MAARCHER they actually do make those vests.

 

I thought they did but was thinking I dreamed it because I couldn't find them online anywhere, but I did find them earlier today after a little more searching; they are called "studded bird harnesses".   

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Wes knows "hold", but I haven't corrected him the way you guys are explaining; so I'll go back and spend time on hold again with the tap and re-command as a correction and see how that goes.   

 

Thank you!

 

Bobman, I was going to say that Wes thinks pinecones are a treat, not a deterrent.   The dog's a K9 forestry mulcher.  

 

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6 hours ago, MAArcher said:

Wes knows "hold", but I haven't corrected him the way you guys are explaining; so I'll go back and spend time on hold again with the tap and re-command as a correction and see how that goes.   

 

Thank you!

 

Bobman, I was going to say that Wes thinks pinecones are a treat, not a deterrent.   The dog's a K9 forestry mulcher.  

 

Just be patient and persistent. It's not going to be one or two sessions and may never completely just resolve itself for good (it's likely it won't) but you'll at least develop a tool to correct it and it should improve some. And once they have the bird or dummy in their mouth getting them to return in a quick manner helps with the issue too (that also helps with dogs that are naturally reluctant to hold the bird.) Keep the sessions short.

 

I have one that is a chomper and one that will deliver to hand and hold firmly but gently. If she picks it up alive, if comes back alive but she doesn't drop. Part of that is genetics and disposition as well as the difference between FFing the first one completely on my own and having expert supervision at critical moments on the next one.

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Has appeared to me that strong pressure has created or exacerbated many dogs' hard-mouth issues, so I'd be very careful with that and spend time on "hold" with birds. 

 

I keep homers and my young dogs get to spend a good bit of yard time carrying live ones, both at heel and when retrieving.  A loose mouth can result in one's escape, and mouthing/chomping results in an immediate verbal correction: "Ut."   And when one of my guys has gotten rough on game without apparent reason, he's probably going to find himself carrying one of our homers around the yard again as reminder to mind his mouth manners.

 

Would think you might get much of that same good from similar yard work with dead birds.

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1 hour ago, Tony Moore said:

Had a GSP once that would squeeze a woodcock like a tube of toothpaste.

I laughed at that. Yes hanging trail is pretty much standard for a lot of dogs.

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15 hours ago, stephen brown said:

Never had an issues with HM in my 4 ESS's. Have had 1 or 2 that could be described as butter mouth ( I think that's the expression).  And if HM or BM are hereditary i'll take BM please. I've heard/read that English trainers/breeders believe HM is hereditary . I'm somewhat inclined to believe American trainers/breeders believe HM is taught/trained and therefore can be untrained.

 

I have spent time with Breeder/trainers on both sides of the Atlantic. The American folks believe the same thing the Brits do, HM and BM are genetic. BM is not a negative thing at all, but it is genetic. Creating a proper retrieve in the Butter mouth dog is easy peasy. "Curing" the Hardmouth dog can and does run into the thousands of dollars. Been there  billed for it. Clients were well advised before the project was started. Here is bad part of "fixing" the HM dog other training aspects are set aside and the dogs overall development puts the dog behind the "8" ball Time wasted trying to fix a genetic condition. Personally I think that is senseless.

 

Hal

 

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There is a difference between a dog ravaging a bird upon retrieve and a dog that tenderizes it a tad with a few tooth marks. I’ll take the latter over a dog that doesn’t retrieve game birds at all. 

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18 minutes ago, Hal Standish said:

I have spent time with Breeder/trainers on both sides of the Atlantic. The American folks believe the same thing the Brits do, HM and BM are genetic. BM is not a negative thing at all, but it is genetic. Creating a proper retrieve in the Butter mouth dog is easy peasy. "Curing" the Hardmouth dog can and does run into the thousands of dollars. Been there  billed for it. Clients were well advised before the project was started. Here is bad part of "fixing" the HM dog other training aspects are set aside and the dogs overall development puts the dog behind the "8" ball Time wasted trying to fix a genetic condition. Personally I think that is senseless.

 

Hal

 

I find this very interesting. Its not a conversation you hear often in Lab circles, though I believe there are dogs with the predisposition for bad mouths. Whether its subtly bred out of the best lines or the fact that FF is ubiquitous in dogs that are involved in performance events I dont know.  Its foundational for Labs, in hunt tests and trials a bad mouth just does not get by judges. For whatever reason it seems like the blockier looking dogs with some show blood are very natural about carrying birds. They benefit from FF of course but many seem to get by junior without, which usually leads to a lot of disappointment as they move up. I have not seen a dog truly overcome hard mouth once the habit was in them. Bandaids seem to work until they dont. I had a nice AA dog I bought as a 2 year old that would occasionally freeze on a bird. They are always for sale for a reason.  Its was invariably on the third bird of a triple. I had some tricks that sorta worked to get the bird, but it got noticed more often than not. There was never any sign it was coming so I had to really look out for it when taking a bird. Damn shame she was a nice dog and was nearly always in the 4th series. She was a pretty soft dog and Im sure it was stress but I never could connect the dots on what stressed her out. I don't love the FF process and have sent dogs out to a pro I respect a lot for it after they were fully collar conditioned, and while I have done some including my current dog myself, I think its a better option. 

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1 hour ago, Jim Vander said:

I find this very interesting. Its not a conversation you hear often in Lab circles, though I believe there are dogs with the predisposition for bad mouths. Whether its subtly bred out of the best lines or the fact that FF is ubiquitous in dogs that are involved in performance events I dont know.  Its foundational for Labs, in hunt tests and trials a bad mouth just does not get by judges. For whatever reason it seems like the blockier looking dogs with some show blood are very natural about carrying birds. They benefit from FF of course but many seem to get by junior without, which usually leads to a lot of disappointment as they move up. I have not seen a dog truly overcome hard mouth once the habit was in them. Bandaids seem to work until they dont. I had a nice AA dog I bought as a 2 year old that would occasionally freeze on a bird. They are always for sale for a reason.  Its was invariably on the third bird of a triple. I had some tricks that sorta worked to get the bird, but it got noticed more often than not. There was never any sign it was coming so I had to really look out for it when taking a bird. Damn shame she was a nice dog and was nearly always in the 4th series. She was a pretty soft dog and Im sure it was stress but I never could connect the dots on what stressed her out. I don't love the FF process and have sent dogs out to a pro I respect a lot for it after they were fully collar conditioned, and while I have done some including my current dog myself, I think its a better option. 

Agreed, Have seen this as well in Labs, Goldens and Curly coat retrievers and Chessies and Bench breed Spaniels. And in all cases with the Bench bred Spaniels all were show dogs of some notoriety, they were dogs that the owners hunted very little, however they were interested in Hunt Test titles. Much to their chagrin, very few made past JH or Sh.

As always acquire the best bred dog possible.

 

Hal

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On 12/1/2020 at 3:08 PM, Brad Eden said:


 I did the light FF to gain more control 

 

Please elaborate on "light FF"

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3 hours ago, Dogwood said:

 

Please elaborate on "light FF"

It’s been a long time. Maybe close to 30 years when I got Jessi. I think I used Spencer’s HUP Spaniel book. I only concentrated on making her hold a wooden buck with dowels sticking out of it. And lightly correcting if she chawed on it, by voice only. She was sensitive so didnt need anything harsh. And working on having her carry it around under my supervision until I told her to “give”. That was about it, no lip pinching or hard core retrieving drills since she was always a reliable retriever from 5-6 months on. Again, if memory serves me.

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I have Spencer’s method brad referenced on a word doc if you want it

 

i just sent a copy to Maarcher 

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7 hours ago, Brad Eden said:

I laughed at that. Yes hanging trail is pretty much standard for a lot of dogs.

I've seen Wes's eyes roll back in his head with ecstasy as he clamped down and grouse guts blew out the end with an audible "pop".  

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