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So I have some questions. My setter is wanting to get ride on top of her birds before she points. What  can I do to get her to start being more cautious?ultimately I’m wanting a wild bird dog in the end

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No expert here but maybe bird launchers. Launch the bird at first whiff by the dog, perhaps use a check cord to prevent chasing. Or pigeon in a sleeve, again once sniffed, throw another pigeon with a check cord as needed.

Last resort a belly band, but BE CAREFUL.

Ideally whoa trained to the max and command whoa when first scent. Do not overuse whoa when pointing. It should be natural.

Lots more experience here on the board than I.

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Short answer yes. It generally does take wild bird exposure to make a good wild bird dog. She needs birds that'll flush with too much pressure, so no shot, no retrieve or contact for her. You can replicate to a degree with remote releases and pigeons, but she'll get wise to that pretty fast.

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I may be the oddball here but my older Setter isn't whoa trained and I'm on the fence re proceeding that way with the pup. IMO the dog should know when to point and when to keep moving as even Grouse and Woodcock don't always play fair. They do get a nick for flushed or chased birds.

There's lots of ways to get there. Depends on your training/hunting options and whether you are primarily a hunter or want to compete in trials or tests. Self relocating dogs are frowned upon in some of those venues...🙂

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Whoa has nothing to do with birds or pointing

 

it’s a command that’s very useful if your dog is approaching a dangerous situation

like coming toward you from the other side of a road with a vehicle approaching 

or a rattlesnake 

Or a porky 

 

it’s also useful for teaching a dog to honor another dog pointing

 

but you don’t whoa a dog into a point on a bird

 

its an obedience command like sit or stay etc

 

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3 hours ago, DWA said:

So I have some questions. My setter is wanting to get ride on top of her birds before she points. What  can I do to get her to start being more cautious?ultimately I’m wanting a wild bird dog in the end

 

How old is she? How much wild bird experience does she have?

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4 hours ago, Scott Berg said:

 

How old is she? How much wild bird experience does she have?

She’s two coming up on three in July. She’s had limited experience since I’ve had her due to low wild bird numbers in my area. I was told when I bought her that she had been on wild birds some. So not a lot but I’m trying to simulate the best I can but I know it’s not the same 

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8 hours ago, bobman said:

Whoa has nothing to do with birds or pointing

 

it’s a command that’s very useful if your dog is approaching a dangerous situation

like coming toward you from the other side of a road with a vehicle approaching 

or a rattlesnake 

Or a porky 

 

it’s also useful for teaching a dog to honor another dog pointing

 

but you don’t whoa a dog into a point on a bird

 

its an obedience command like sit or stay etc

 

Would you ‘whoa’ after point established to stop creeping?

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8 hours ago, bobman said:

Whoa has nothing to do with birds or pointing

 

it’s a command that’s very useful if your dog is approaching a dangerous situation

like coming toward you from the other side of a road with a vehicle approaching 

or a rattlesnake 

Or a porky 

 

it’s also useful for teaching a dog to honor another dog pointing

 

but you don’t whoa a dog into a point on a bird

 

its an obedience command like sit or stay etc

 

 

Bingo.  All my pups were taught within a few months of being home the "Whoa" command.  I used it before I let them out in the morning to do their business and before I let them back in for breakfast or dinner after they are outside.  Do it when I put their food bowls down.   Dogs learn real quick the commands means as long as they are all enforced   Food taken away or a door banged against their noses if they don't listen teaches them real quick.   All of them of also taught to "kennel" on command.  That was easy.  One dog treat a day thrown in their kennel and the command given to Kennel.   

 

PS.   Once they are Whoa'd, they can't move until the release command is given of "OK".   All my kids and my wife uses the above three commands with the dogs.   They know what those three commands stone cold. 

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11 minutes ago, Jacksdad said:

Would you ‘whoa’ after point established to stop creeping?

I do and I don't.  If Soph is relocating on a running bird I let her.  If for some reason she bumps a bird (or god forbid 2) then I will start using the "Whoa" command.   In the field I probably use it for backing another dog more then any other time.  Sometimes I think two dogs are working the same scent and one dog just overlooks or tries to ignore the other dog being there.  If I see a dog lock up and I know Sophie can see her/him, I will give the "Whoa" command to stop her and make her honor the point.  Soph didn't really learn to honor other dogs points until she was about 3 and then it really kicked in, probably because I had "Whoa'd" her enough in that situation that she figured it out. 

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4 hours ago, Jacksdad said:

Would you ‘whoa’ after point established to stop creeping?


no I just don’t shoot the bird

 

some of my dogs run hundreds of yards away they need to figure it out

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15 hours ago, grouse28 said:

No expert here but maybe bird launchers. Launch the bird at first whiff by the dog..

 

15 hours ago, SxSetter said:

Short answer yes. It generally does take wild bird exposure to make a good wild bird dog. She needs birds that'll flush with too much pressure, so no shot, no retrieve or contact for her. You can replicate to a degree with remote releases and pigeons, but she'll get wise to that pretty fast.

 

This is what comes to my mind.   

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5 hours ago, Jacksdad said:

Would you ‘whoa’ after point established to stop creeping?

No. And definitely don't shoot the bird if it's pressured to fly by the dog. When the bird is in the air, (depending on the level of training the dog has had) and you command him to whoa, or nick him with the collar, or whatever he's been taught, then he'd better listen. I bring him near the point of infraction and set him up to whoa, and depending on the infraction (and again the level of training) I make him stand for a bit to ponder the situation. Then I grab his collar and release him in the opposite direction. A dog with a good foundation and any level of intelligence will get through this fairly quickly, imo.

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Yes, wild birds would be best. Getting less and less an option for most of us.

Woodcock are an option for a training bird in the wild.

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There is also the option of "stop to flush" training.  This may work best in conjunction with an e-collar(if the dog is properly conditioned).  

 

If you have a launcher or two in a training field and the dog is running, pop the launcher(I typically would use pigeons) where the dog can see the bird fly, but well before he could scent it.  The goal of the drill is to have the dog stop and stand to the flight of the bird. 

 

I condition my youngsters with an e-collar on their flank.  I typically introduce the flank collar in the yard during heel/whoa drills. Most often, I use the vibrate function to "cue" the dog to stop and stand.  I do momentary hits every ten seconds or so as the dog is standing there, both as a reminder and as conditioning.   There is some pressure to this approach, but it is pretty minimal and i have used it on a soft dog with good success.   This way, when in the field, when the dog sees its first "wild" flush and starts to go after it, a series of momentary hits on vibrate or...later... on level 1 will "remind" the dog that it I expect it to stop and stand.

 

The combination of effective yardwork, focused field training and running on wild birds (and not shooting anything not properly handled) will very likely get you and your dog where you need to be.

 

Patience, persistence and insistence shold be your watchwords.  A healthy sense of humor is invaluable when working with a young dog that is full of vinegar.

 

RayG

 

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