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Bail Outs For Auto Industry?

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patriot

I'm with you, Frak.

Let'em file bankruptcy; if one goes belly-up, the other two will benefit and be stronger.

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L. Gallagher

And while everyone's arguing about it, this country is going down the drain.

My husband got laid off today from an automotive related manufacturing business that he's been with for years that is Canadian owned. It's an "indefinite" layoff.

There are very few options up here for him. We can't live on my income, and we cut down to the bone years ago...he was making about $45k a year.

And we are both too old to start over. There are millions of people like us in this country...who will have no recourse at ages of 50+ but to lose everything and eventually become wards of their children for as long as they can afford it.

And that's what this country is coming to.

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bobman

And while everyone's arguing about it, this country is going down the drain.

My husband got laid off today from an automotive related manufacturing business that he's been with for years that is Canadian owned. It's an "indefinite" layoff.

There are very few options up here for him. We can't live on my income, and we cut down to the bone years ago...he was making about $45k a year.

And we are both too old to start over. There are millions of people like us in this country...who will have no recourse at ages of 50+ but to lose everything and eventually become wards of their children for as long as they can afford it.

And that's what this country is coming to.

While I understand your despair I disagree. You cannot just give up.

Your not too old and you can move down here and start over, it wont be easy but nothing worthwhile is. The south has lower taxes, lower cost of living and is always looking for skilled non union employees.

The michigan ohio union contracted auto industry cannot survive on the course its on it must go bankrupt and restructure. Its simply cannot compete. Everyone has to come to grips with this and move on to something else.

45 K jobs are not hard to find down here for good people, on average midwesterners are better educated and find work easily down here. You just can't be picky things are tght down here also at the moment I would try to find something anything then move or retrain. I'm probably the same age or older and will die working :D

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Guest

Linda, I am very sorry to hear of your misfortune.  This is a really tough issue and it goes way beyond the auto industry.  When the first 700b plan was proposed I couldn't see it working but I didn't have the heart to say we shouldn't try.  That plan may have bought us a bit of time but in my view, beyond buying some time, it has been worse than a total failure.  

I understand Hartford Insurance took bail out money and now they are looking to aquire a bank with it.  That seems criminal to me when the economy is melting down and hard working perple are going to suffer like you are.

Unfortunately the suffering is going to go far beyond the auto industry and I don't understand where all the money is going to come from.

Our leaders from all parties in the public and private sector have let us down.  The promises that so many have worked for and saved for are melting away with the economy.  It looks like we have years of hard adjustment ahead of all of us.

I know that this doesn't make it any better but we all care.

Dave

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wormdunker
I'm from a G.M. town. My mother retired with 34 years on the job. My dad work in a small factory that supplied G.M. parts all his life. It always amazes me when people say the guy sweeping the floor gets 26.00 per hour. If he's still working he would have to have at least 10 year seniority. How much should he be paid for 10 years service?  Shouldn't he have health and pension plan? Makes sences lay the people off that does the work so the higher ups that make the real money and the decision always move on to bigger and better. I live in a state that from time to time the snow gets ass deep. I like to hunt and fish putting my four dogs in one of those 30 m.p.g death traps plus hauling my boat or other toys S.U.V. is a must. Due something to control fuel costs, and we would be arguing rather so save so many peoples jobs.

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bobman

The same people that have done everthing they could to destroy the auto industry with high taxes, ridiculus emmission laws, anti suv cafe rules, refusal to drill for domestic oil ect were just voted in to office by the Unions. They've worked diligently since the 60's to bring down our industries, passed taxation laws more punitive than every other country to corporations  contributing to outsourceing, locking huge amounts of capital out of this country.

Now they got what they want and so did the people that supported them.

If we continue to head the direction we are going this quote applies

Quote

"How Long Do We Have?

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University  of  Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the  Athenian   Republic  some 2,000 years earlier:

'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'

 'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'

'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.'

'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years'

End quote

the country could bail them out every every other year forever and it wont help. We have to change the way we do things in this country. And not the "change" the current batch of politicians are suggesting.

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rosies dad
And while everyone's arguing about it, this country is going down the drain.

My husband got laid off today from an automotive related manufacturing business that he's been with for years that is Canadian owned. It's an "indefinite" layoff.

There are very few options up here for him. We can't live on my income, and we cut down to the bone years ago...he was making about $45k a year.

And we are both too old to start over. There are millions of people like us in this country...who will have no recourse at ages of 50+ but to lose everything and eventually become wards of their children for as long as they can afford it.

And that's what this country is coming to.

I am sorry Linda, I am for saving the auto industry. There is just too many jobs connected to the industry to let it die off.

This Sept/early October Financial crisis was just the beginning of the recession.

I am in a near panic mode, and I am going to be 60. Retired and like you.. No jobs of any consequence around.

I have managed to save most of my retirement (self directed IRA-no monthly pension). Our Pucker Factor is about 96% over the economy. I expect my grown children to call soon with "were loosing the house, what do we do". I cant help, and I dont know who can.

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gonehuntin

The American manufacturers did it to themselve. They have been building crap for years and it's catching up to them. I'm a business man and no one bails me out it I screw up and sink my business.

I feel like that guy walking around wall street carrying the sign that said " Jump you Fuc$%#s."

I'm not happy about having to pay for the corruption and mistakes of huge manufacturing and banking. Screw them.

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rosies dad
The American manufacturers did it to themselve. They have been building crap for years and it's catching up to them. I'm a business man and no one bails me out it I screw up and sink my business.

I feel like that guy walking around wall street carrying the sign that said " Jump you Fuc$%#s."

I'm not happy about having to pay for the corruption and mistakes of huge manufacturing and banking. Screw them.

The problem is the CEO's and upper management likes have been getting too much money for mismanagement and bad decisions. They have golden parachutes and enough $$ squirreled away to live till hell freezes over. They wont be hurt much by these tough times.

It just seems as if everybody at high management has lost touch with reality.

Point, yesterday I visited a GM dealership. NOT ONE WORK TRUCK  on the lot. All tricked out $30,000 Silverado's.

Dont tell me nobody buys a work truck anymore.

Is it the dealer that wont bother with a bare bones truck? Is society spoiled so for a bird hunting truck we need leather seats and Alum wheels?

I am not of that income level to afford that anymore. Maybe Ford, GM, and Chrysler ought to think selling a bare bones model may be better than not selling anything.

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DGilmore

Bobman,

While I may agree with the sentiment expressed by whomever wrote the words attributed to "Alexander Tyler", he never existed.  There was an Alexander Tytler, but no Scots professor with that name in that time frame.  And those words were not written or said by Tytler, at least we don't have a record of them.  Just another internet hoax.

The financial crisis, regrettably, is no hoax. Personally, I think that the number one string to ANY government loan should be that the CEO, COO and CFO of every company (including banks) that seeks gov. money HAS to resign immediately and resign with NO parachute -gold, brass, lead or dirt.

The car companies got themselves into this mess, just as did the financial and other firms, by sheer incompetence, gross negiligence and reckless arrogance.

One of these days, this country HAS to enact laws that prohibits a company officer from sitting on any Board of Directors.  What has happened is that Boards are peopled by CEO's and CFO's of other companies. They sit around and give the CEO and other officers extravagant and irresponsible benefit/salary packages and then use that to help increase their own pay at their companies.

Of course, the erstwhile Senator from Connecticut (not Lieberman) and the Congressman from Massachusetts with the purple dinosaur name had not a little to do with this disaster (the "Mac" attacks).

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bobman

you could be right I cut and pasted that sometime ago and can't remember where I got it.

Heres another good one, I think applies.

What we are witnessing, sadly, is the decline and fall of the American Empire. The sun sets on every empire established by man, and ours will be no exception.

One of the most popular books of all time is "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire," written in 1788 by Edward Gibbon. The book set forth five basic reasons why great civilizations wither and die:

-The undermining of the dignity and sanctity of the home, which is the basis for human society;

-Higher and higher taxes and the spending of public money for free bread and circuses for the populace;

-The mad craze for pleasure -- sports becoming every year more exciting, more brutal, more immoral;

-The building of great armaments when the real enemy is within -- the decay of individual responsibility;

-The decay of religion -- with faith fading into mere form, losing touch with life, losing power to guide people;

The average age of the world's civilizations has been 200 years. Civilizations and empires tend to progress through this sequence, say historians:

-from bondage to spiritual faith

-from spiritual faith to great courage

-from courage to liberty

-from liberty to abundance

-from abundance to selfishness

-from selfishness to complacency

-from complacency to apathy

-from apathy to dependence

-from dependence back again to bondage

America is 232 years old I think.

Where do you think we, as a nation, are in that sequence?

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quailguy

And while everyone's arguing about it, this country is going down the drain.

My husband got laid off today from an automotive related manufacturing business that he's been with for years that is Canadian owned. It's an "indefinite" layoff.

There are very few options up here for him. We can't live on my income, and we cut down to the bone years ago...he was making about $45k a year.

And we are both too old to start over. There are millions of people like us in this country...who will have no recourse at ages of 50+ but to lose everything and eventually become wards of their children for as long as they can afford it.

And that's what this country is coming to.

Linda,

I am sure we all have a great deal of empathy for your plight.

The current drop in auto sales is tied to the current economic crisis and will not last forever. My guess is the country will start coming out of it in mid 2009.

 Any better guesses from anyone else?

The current problems in the big 3 auto industry are directly related to costs in the big 3 business model. This model of relying on fuel gulping large SUV and pick-up sales cannot last as the price of fuel will bounce back to higher levels as we climb out of recession. Current union wages and work rules and benefits are not sustainable in a global market. Anyone that pays someone $28 an hour to sweep floors or $60 an hour as a high school grad to assemble cars is not going to stay in business. Period. Add the cost of health care and its just too expensive.

Notice that US based foreign owned auto companies Toyota, Honda, BMW, are not asking for bailouts? Different business model, mostly non-union workers. The Toyata plant south of San Antonio (near where I live) has not laid anyone off and is switching from truck to fuel efficient cars as its main product.

This bailout is not really a bailout for the big 3 auto companies, its a bailout of the United Auto Workers Union. Not one proponent of the bailout has asked the UAW for any concessions. Its the liberal Dimocrats paying off their pals and supporters the unions with our money. Simple as that.

And that proposed bailout without substantial changes in big 3 and UAW practices will just be our money down the drain.

JMHO,

Quailguy

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WPG Gizmo

Chrysler and GM likely will go belly up Ford and Chevy are a toss up.  Lets look at Chrysler they are asking for bail out help yet are paying bonuses to the top 12 or so execs in the amount of 30 Mil.  Why give them money they are going to squander.

Same with the Banking bail out that is not working banlks were given money to kick start lending but they are holding on to it or buying up smaller banks with it.  Now there are a bunch of Politicans saying we didnt have enough checks and balances in place before we gave it out.

Politicans dug us a hole with the first bailout and now they want to make it even deeper with a second bailout.   :angry:

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Guest

I heard the UAW president make some comments today that I found very interesting.  He said it isn't a bail out it is a loan and it would be paid back.  I'm curious if he is willing to put the UAW's and its member's money where his mouth is and guarantee the "loan".  

Dave

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gungho
Our leaders from all parties in the public and private sector have let us down.  The promises that so many have worked for and saved for are melting away with the economy.  It looks like we have years of hard adjustment ahead of all of us.

It ain't just the "leaders".  We the people have played a role in this mess:  credit card debts up the wazoo, unaffordable houses on adjustable morgages, etc.

You are never too old to start over Linda.  Good luck.

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