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Bail Outs For Auto Industry?


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According to Forbes:

Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, and especially Ford, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.

I asked the question in a post above above what are the unions doing to address this enormous difference in cost and my question was ignored I got no reply.

Good facts except you should read the read dates on the articles. What you are presenting was before the last contract.

i watched as much of the hearings as I could before I couldn't stomach them anymore. I just wish that some of the committee could shadow some of the best and brightest in the industry and see if they could keep up.

So enlighten us whats the new contract do to the labor cost differential numbers?

can you give us a current source to read if these are wrong

thanks

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Breakfast Boy
According to Forbes:

Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, and especially Ford, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.

I asked the question in a post above above what are the unions doing to address this enormous difference in cost and my question was ignored I got no reply.

Good facts except you should read the read dates on the articles. What you are presenting was before the last contract.

i watched as much of the hearings as I could before I couldn't stomach them anymore. I just wish that some of the committee could shadow some of the best and brightest in the industry and see if they could keep up.

So enlighten us whats the new contract do to the labor cost differential numbers?

can you give us a current source to read if these are wrong

thanks

Like I said in an earlier post...union workers at GM hiring in off the street now are making HALF of what workers hired in before the last contract make.  I don't have any news source to quote, but you can call and talk to the new hire kid working across from me tomorrow night.

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Almost Heaven GSP's

How many of you in Mngmt. Positions would be willing to step up and say "cut my wages" and/or "cut my medical, annuity, pension, etc..."?

Oh yea, that's right, we already know that answer from the debacles with AIG, et al......

Golden parachutes and all you know. :p

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How many of you in Mngmt. Positions would be willing to step up and say "cut my wages" and/or "cut my medical, annuity, pension, etc..."?

Oh yea, that's right, we already know that answer from the debacles with AIG, et al......

Golden parachutes and all you know. :p

I would if the alternative was no job and the salary was the going rate in the rest of the industry.

Thats the whole point its now to the spot where no one wants to budge and they are all going to go down with a sinking ship. I've had to tighen my belt sevearal times over the years due to industry problems, so does anyone in any nonunion industry, after 9-11 terrorist attack everyone in our company took a 15% cut in pay to prevent layoffs, we eventually got it back.

The new hires impact cannot be that great in the short run because in a contracting business with massive layoffs there are not going to be many so its a idea too little too late.

I read the UAW web site and all I could find is them braggin they didn't give up much if anything, now I know thats the unions job but it sure seems to me to be unrealistic.

As for the management ( look at the article Pat Berry posted) I think they will steal a lot of any bailout and line their pockets with bonuses because they realize the handwriting is on the wall. They correctly I think, realize the union is not going to budge far enough to save GM  and the Dems that now control congress will probably just pay off the uniuons with a bailout that will only prolong the inevitable, so they are going to set themselves up on the way out.

Its a mess and I am genuinely sorry for the rank and file workers caught up in this but I dont understand why they cannot see this bigger picture and get their unions to make the benefit packages competitve with toyota . As stated above, and from what I read its not the salaries so much as the benefits that contribute to the overall burden.

Save the company save your jobs and then regroup and beat the foreign manufacturers at the business

And to the people on this board that work for GM this is not meant to criticise you personally I am truly sorry you are caught up in this.

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Almost Heaven GSP's

I'm torn on the whole bail out... I can see good and bad on both sides.

I just get reaaaallllll tired of all the Union bashing, especially when many don't realize how often the Unions do negotiate what is called an "85% Contract", where in all wages and benefits are set up at 85% of their normal rate to maintain jobs and help failing or hurting industries, though these do tend to be local or Industry specific contracts. Will the UAW consider something like this? I have no idea, I'm not a Member and that is their bag of chips.

You'll NEVER see this on the Mngmt. side!!!!!

"How dare anyone ask me to take a cut!!!"

I can't speak for UAW, but most Union Tradesman have an education on the level with, or close to Engineers in their fields, minus the Academics. Taking me as an example; I have 7 years of education in Electronic and Electrical Theories and Principles, plus over 8000 hours that was OJT(on job training) BEFORE I got my ticket. I have had Electrical Engineers stupified when trying to talk to them about miscalculations on their parts, that resulted in harmonic distortions, heating and losses as only one example of many. I've also worked side by side and hand in hand 2 different years at several plants with Ford Engineers specifically, bringing a new assembly on line after a retool for new model years and more than once had them looking to me for the answers and these guys were making 3X the wages and benefits I was.... And I should jump right up and offer to take a cut? Now I know why I got out of the industry!

I believe both sides should be willing to deal to save their jobs and the industry, but I know at least one side wouldn't even consider such a thing.... been there, done that!

Sorry for the rant, but it isn't just the Unions.....

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Well Bruce thats just it neither side will compromise enough to make a difference so getting back to the topic should the taxpayers them out?

Or would all concerned be better in the long run letting it take its course?

Hell of a question to have to answer

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Oh and engineers are a PITA.

IMO good ones that know what they are doing are the ones the assemble a bunch of expertise in each area of the project and LISTEN to that expertise.

The bad ones KNOW everything and screw the project up.

I work with engineers everyday and none of them know as much as I do,not even close in my field.

But I will admit they are smart guys overall and I do respect most of them.

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Almost Heaven GSP's

Agreed on all counts Bob.

This is only a beginning suggestion, not a complete plan and in the perfect world and maybe I'm being blind to even suggest this could work....

Give them the Bailout BUT, and that's a big BUT....

1)ALL personnel take cuts from Mngmt all the way down to the rank and file on the line. UAW negotiates a reasonable 75 or 85% contract and Mngmt agrees to same on their side. It would instill more trust on both sides and show that both sides are willing to work together to save jobs and the industry, reduce overall cost including vehicle cost and make them more competitive.

2) NO GOLDEN PARACHUTES OR BONUS'!!!!

3)Knock off the d@m^ "every year" model changes that result in extremely costly retools of assembly lines every single year! This alone would result in MILLIONS of dollars PER PLANT of savings in construction cost and I also believe, the consistency year in and year out of making the same ol, same ol would result in a higher quality product, rather than taking half a year for everyone to figure out all of the new tooling they are working with.

After that... he!! I don't know but I think this would be a good starting point....

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the % cuts have to be competitve with what the Japanese are doing.

I really agree with number three I would far prefer they stick with the same model and refine it until its the best car in the world.

The marketing side of the auto business is all flash and no substance

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"I believe both sides should be willing to deal to save their jobs and the industry"

I agree with that but how come it has to be with my (Joe taxpayer) money?

In regards to taking pay cuts, I work for myself and that is just part of the game.  I have to be nimble and change quickly as conditions change, otherwise I would go broke.  Just yesterday I sold several thousand shares of a stock who's prospects have changed in the past few weeks.  I have to look at future conditions and rationally plan for that, not backward thinking.  I'm glad I did as the particular stock is down an additional 10% as I write this.  That is just part of the game, cut your losses and move forward.  I don't complain about it I just do it and move forward.  I have to deal in reality, not in how I would like the world to be.

For those in the auto industry, you have had 30 plus years notice, what more does it take for rational decision making on your part?  Where is it in the Constitution that you are guaranteed a job at the rate you think you are worth?

What ever happened to the spirit of our pioneers who often failed over and over again but never stopped trying?  When they failed they moved to where the opportunities were.

Barney Frank's Dog and Pony Show has just started on TV.  The thought that this problem is in Barney Frank's hands doesn't fill me with confidence.

Dave

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Bob, I actually edited a similar comment from my post.  The thoughts that come to mind as the abundance of words flow out of his mouth can not and should not be posted here.  :D

Dave

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Almost Heaven GSP's

HAHAHA! Not fit for public consumption!

I agree with that but how come it has to be with my (Joe taxpayer) money?

Well Dave, I agree, but then I think we all realize the effects of the trickle down and I think this thing would make Enron look like a "Mom and Pop" store closed by comparison.

I just don't know.... I'm used to managing Multi-Million dollar jobs in my "past life", not Multi-Billion dollar industries. However, like you, I'm now responsible for my well being as a Business Owner and understand your take 100%.... nobody is going to bail my sorry arse out if I sink due to poor Mngmt., poor business decisions and poor quality.

I guess the bigger question is: As a Country, can our economy as it stands now really take a hit like this should the Industry be allowed to fail?

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